high drive show lines? - Page 7

I to prefer the old german showlines,A beautiful example of the breed that is not extreme in any way.From what I read and see this dog may also become lost with improvements[SO THEY CALL IT .If ain't broke,don't fix it.
                                                                                                                               Michael

maybe it is the responsibility of the owners and breeders of these old german non-extreme showlines to continue the form and function of these dogs and fall for the new and improved versions.....what say you?

Ahhh Gustav, a bright light in a sea of clouds.  A huge contributing factor in the current state of the German Shepherd Dog is the conformation.  When you hear terms like "beautiful" and "gorgeous" to describe a working dog, you know you're in trouble.  It's funny how the internet covers up deficiencies as everyone describes their dog as "extreme" and with "incredible" drives yet all they have done is play ball in their own back yard or done 1 club trial at each level.  I have helped do secretary work at conformation shows before and have seen it first hand, it's "One and Done".  Page through the scorebook and you find basic passing scores, 70,70,80 everywhere.  I love how the minimum bite score was changed to accommodate weaker dogs and the blind attack was removed from SchH I and the gunfire from the BH.  I guess one man's ceiling is another man's floor, one man's trash is another man's treasure and my version, and I believe Gustav's (if I may be so bold) of extreme working dogs with incredible drives are different than most here.  Don't tell me, show me!!

Michael49, I own and breed Czech/DDR/West workinglines. What do you classify the Czech dogs. Please tell me!! You talk the middle, well I owned a Marko vom Cellerland son. I owned a Meik v d Peltzerferm grandson, I owned an Enno v Anftreftal grandson, all these dogs in the middle sevties and eighties. No split, just V rated working dogs. This is what I breed for today. I see many V rated Czech dogs that are doing a lot of SAR and police/military work. These are just like the dogs we had in the days when there was no split. People TALK about when there was no split, I owned and bred when there was no split. I still breed as if there is no split, I breed German shepherds that can be good family dogs, can be seeing-eye dogs, be military/police dogs. They can be any of these dogs because I breed for good conformation that will work. Half the people talking from the split only know the "split" and wouldn't know good GS temperament if it bit them. There are workingline dogs that I would not breed to because they have gone to far with drive over brains, I won't touch showline dogs because the genepool is too closed and lack of health and temperament is the result. But there are great shepherds out there like the many Czech dogs that excell in Family, Sport, Police, and military, with excellent conformation. Those that think the GS world is only about the split, .....Well they just don't know! And those that think I care about the split is on one side or the other of the split and don't know me. Its NOT about the split, its about the German shepherd dog, a world class working dog. If it happens to be pretty, so be it, but NEVER breed for the prettiness....PERIOD!

Dawn, its about the dog with me and whether they represent the breed or not. I have many times criticized German shepherds with Malinois temperament. I think that's wrong, but i am harder on ANY type of dog in the breed that won't work. Happens to be from what I see the showlines are the worst. I don't care about what anybody likes, including myself, I am only privileged to try to continue the breeding of the German Shepherd that became a legendary working dog. My personal likes as to color or size of head or angulation, mean nothing, because its not about WHAT I LIKE, its about maintaining the integrity of the breed!  that's what I'm about nothing more or nothing less!

Gustav,
           When I speak of working or showline breeders,I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone.I whole heartedly agree that both aspects of a breeding need to be taken into consideration, and dogs bred that contribute brains and beauty and above all good temperament. Breeding for either one seperately and solely as I see it does nothing for the breed. I think the desire to win, either in the ring or on the field, has led to extreme traits both in conformation as well as working lines.MY DEFINITION OF THE TRUE GSD IS A DOG THAT HAS ACCEPTABLE CONFORMATION,AND ACCEPTABLE DRIVES, WITH AN EXCELLENT TEMPERAMENT.NOTHING EXTREME FROM EITHER SIDE IS ACCEPTABLE TO ME. This is my idea of a dog from the middle.I agree with what you say about small showline gene pools and there degenerative effects on the breed health wise.I also see the working line headed in the same direction,by your own words you speak of working lines bred for drive over brains, this inself speaks volumes about the temperament of this type dog, completely unaccetable in my mind.I don't know you,but what you say to me makes me believe that you understand these dogs,not from winning on the field or from winning in the ring, but living with them and knowing the type before all the extremes were bred for.The type of breeding that you profess to do is exactly the way it should be done in my opinion.All the traits that you speak of,family dog,seeing eye dog,SAR,police/military should be present,these are the things this dog was bred to do.To answer your question about the Czech dogs,I have limited experience with these dogs, the ones I've seen I would consider to be working dogs for the most part. I've seen some of these dogs with what I would consider to be influenced by some Mal or Dutch blood.As for color,I think color has no bearing on the dogs working ability,conformation,or temperament, unless the dogs were bred to extremes for the ovious reasons from both sides.To reverse this in its current state,would take more time then I  have left on this earth, but I will continue to hope and trust that others see things in the same light that I do.
                                                                                                              Michael


As an after thought I'll add this to the mix,the type of gsd spoken of in my words to Gustav and the explanation of Gustavs breeding program to me, produces the type of gsd that most people have in their my minds when they seek a dog for the family. Not an over the top working dog with extreme drives or a showline dog of poor health.Just a dog with the traits that come natural in a well thought out breeding.

Gustav, I'm new to all this.

What is a German Shepherd with a Malinois temperament. Haven't been around any Mals at all.

Thanks,
Rik 

Michael49, I'm much more middle of the road than it appears when, I review the status of some lines today. I likewise agree with your concept for the breed.

Rik, Your question implies that you have not been to many if any performance trials in recent years. It is very difficult to go to any Sch/SDA/Ring/National event/World event(except WUSV), and not see any Malinois. You also can't really go to any police working trials today and not know a Malinois. Hell, its hard to even have a K9 department of any size and not know a Malinois. These are performance areas of the breed and right now the Malinois has maybe supplanted the GS in areas where the GS was always at the top. Either way, the Malinois is a very fast, agile, tall square dog with over the top drives. When they have strong nerves, they are as fine a working dog as you can find in the world. They have filled the void created by the lack of good working GS in many venues these days.

As for showlines, I will say that as of now, I will refrain from commenting on them on this forum anymore until next year when the Annual Seiger show presents itself. If it appears that the dog has improved to what these breeders tell me I am not seeing, I will be the first one to applaud the dog sincerely. But, if the it appears the cycle is continuing in the current direction.....well a bad dog is a bad dog if its a working dog that doesn't work.  Peace!