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by Xeph on 03 February 2014 - 12:02
"For all of those who think hard, civil, aggressive dogs are unnecessary, all it takes is one rape or one real beating and you WILL change your mind."
I have experienced such an atrocity. It has not changed my mind as to the type of dog *I* need. I refuse to live in fear. That said, I never said that the kind of dog you want is unnecessary. They are needed, just not in huge quantities. More probably should be produced than what exists today, but the reality is that 98% of GSDs are going to be pets.
I do not want a Lab or Golden in GSD colors. I hate retrievers. Sincerely. Cannot even stand to be around them. What I view as social and what somebody else may view as social may be completely different. I still value drive, nerves, and good thresholds because I *do* need a real working animal. I have this breed because I do love that they can and should possess aggression and because they are aloof, but can also make wonderful pets.
I have experienced such an atrocity. It has not changed my mind as to the type of dog *I* need. I refuse to live in fear. That said, I never said that the kind of dog you want is unnecessary. They are needed, just not in huge quantities. More probably should be produced than what exists today, but the reality is that 98% of GSDs are going to be pets.
I do not want a Lab or Golden in GSD colors. I hate retrievers. Sincerely. Cannot even stand to be around them. What I view as social and what somebody else may view as social may be completely different. I still value drive, nerves, and good thresholds because I *do* need a real working animal. I have this breed because I do love that they can and should possess aggression and because they are aloof, but can also make wonderful pets.
by Hired Dog on 03 February 2014 - 15:02
Paul, what are the chances you can develop or find this type of aggression without sacrificing nerve?
by mollyandjack on 03 February 2014 - 17:02
Yeah, I have to agree with Xeph. I don't have a dog to prevent a rape or beating, I have other tools for that. I have a dog that will scare the pants off of most people with his bark, which is all I really ask of him. If someone keeps coming after me through him, well, I don't need a dog at that point. As someone who has survived through some terrible situations, I think it isn't helpful to suggest that a particular kind of dog will prevent a rape or beating. If you need to protect yourself, get some training, get a gun, and be aware. I can see the point in breeding for the animals that Paul describes, but I just disagree on this particular point...
by gsdstudent on 03 February 2014 - 17:02
I hate to type so long explaination are exhusting. 1] why is there not more Pirry blood out there? 2] it might not be necessary since the blood lines are still active 3] I see more ''extreme'' dogs coming from tolerant, uneducated [ in the dog sense] homes, not from trainers. 4] prey rymes with play but prey can be very serious 5] dogs kill in their prey drives] dogs warn, chase away, or punish in defence drive. 6]In nearly 40 years of GSDs I see better specimens today, in ratio of total dogs than before. 7] might there be close to the same percentage of '' extreme'' dogs now as there ever has been? maybe a + or - not so far apart historicly? 8] might the difference in % of the extreme dogs be training? so if you raise a dog in defence training you will not see more of what some want?
by Paul Garrison on 03 February 2014 - 17:02
Hired Dog
I have been involved in the reproduction of a lot of animals including performance dogs most of my life, and with all of this experence I will answer your qusetion. I do not know. lol
The problem is finding real aggression without fear as you implyed and then reproduce it. This is why I do not have an ad that says "Personal Protection Dogs for sale"
Most dogs that are aggressive are to one extent or the other are fearful. The type of dog required in my life are real self assured and aggressive too. Frend or Foe no middle ground. The dog has to have enough confidence to believe that no one can hurt him/her, enough suspicion to keep an eye out and enough aggression to get up to bit somone. All the rest is training. (when to bite and when not to) BUT the dog has to have a handler strong enough to handle such a dog.
Most people, and even on this dog board have not been exposed to large amounts of different types of German Sheperds to see the pros and cons of all temperments.. Therefore they can't understand what I am trying to do. They believe this type of dog is dangerous to others as well as dangerous to the handler. Most real hard dogs are not good sport dogs because of all the pressure for the precision of the sport for high points can bring conflict between dog and handler and a dog such as I speek of will defend himself.
I have been involved in the reproduction of a lot of animals including performance dogs most of my life, and with all of this experence I will answer your qusetion. I do not know. lol
The problem is finding real aggression without fear as you implyed and then reproduce it. This is why I do not have an ad that says "Personal Protection Dogs for sale"
Most dogs that are aggressive are to one extent or the other are fearful. The type of dog required in my life are real self assured and aggressive too. Frend or Foe no middle ground. The dog has to have enough confidence to believe that no one can hurt him/her, enough suspicion to keep an eye out and enough aggression to get up to bit somone. All the rest is training. (when to bite and when not to) BUT the dog has to have a handler strong enough to handle such a dog.
Most people, and even on this dog board have not been exposed to large amounts of different types of German Sheperds to see the pros and cons of all temperments.. Therefore they can't understand what I am trying to do. They believe this type of dog is dangerous to others as well as dangerous to the handler. Most real hard dogs are not good sport dogs because of all the pressure for the precision of the sport for high points can bring conflict between dog and handler and a dog such as I speek of will defend himself.
by Blitzen on 03 February 2014 - 18:02
I guess I'm one of those who don't get it, Paul. Forgive a stupid question, could there be another breed that is better suited to your needs?
by Hired Dog on 03 February 2014 - 19:02
Paul, I have never been a breeder, never want to be one either so I cant speak in breeding terms, but, I will tell you that the first Malinois I owned in the US was exactly what you described. Having lived with that dog for 7 years Paul, I will tell you that I dont think you can get "that" level of aggression without sacrificing nerve. That dog was one of the toughest dogs ever, but, looking back on it now, it was not simply based on "balls", it was also a nerve issue as well.
Zero prey drive, TONS of fight drive, everyone was fair game and if he thought there was a bite in it for him, there is nothing he would not do to earn it. No handler aggression, unless you pushed it too far, then he was more then willing to engage. No animal aggression, zero, none, but, if you were a HUMAN, you were the enemy.
Even though its a great feeling to own a dog like this when it comes to protection, the dog would engage ANYTHING and ANYONE I pointed at, its a HUGE liability and a pain in the ass to live with daily.
I would never want to again, even though I loved it at the time. I do agree with you as far as what you want to produce and I am looking forward to see what kind of dogs come out of your breedings when you start. I will leave you with some very wise words an old Irish gentleman imparted on me many years a go and I took them to heart..."Never own a dog whose ass you cant kick"!
Zero prey drive, TONS of fight drive, everyone was fair game and if he thought there was a bite in it for him, there is nothing he would not do to earn it. No handler aggression, unless you pushed it too far, then he was more then willing to engage. No animal aggression, zero, none, but, if you were a HUMAN, you were the enemy.
Even though its a great feeling to own a dog like this when it comes to protection, the dog would engage ANYTHING and ANYONE I pointed at, its a HUGE liability and a pain in the ass to live with daily.
I would never want to again, even though I loved it at the time. I do agree with you as far as what you want to produce and I am looking forward to see what kind of dogs come out of your breedings when you start. I will leave you with some very wise words an old Irish gentleman imparted on me many years a go and I took them to heart..."Never own a dog whose ass you cant kick"!
by Paul Garrison on 03 February 2014 - 19:02
Mollly
Those other tools are not so easy either. It is not so easy to pull that trigger. I am not saying you personally but there a lot of guns taken away by attackers. A dog that threatens or warns is very a useful tool, but I would rather my dogs back that warning, and that is the dirrerence between pointing a gun and pulling the trigger. BUT there is a lot more liabilty for my way. This is what is cool about this, this is not a right and wrong, just different opinions.
Many years ago a gun carrying man inquired about a pertection dog I had for sale for $3500 (he carried lots of cash for a check cashing business). His opinion was this dog was too much money. 3 weeks later a woman drove up with a badly beaten man in her car to find out he had been robed of $50,000 and a 2 and a half week stay in the hospital. Again he asked how much for the dog and I told him $3500 and he said he seemed much cheaper today. He replaced the dog at age 12 with another dog.
I am neither a woman or little so I will not speak for eather, but crimes against them are close to my heart. I am not trying to offend anyone, I love to discuss these things. There is nothing that will stop crime. I am just trying to help slow it down and prevent it from happening to me.
GSDstudent.. I got my first GSD in 1973
1) He has no progeny and that type of dog is hard to sell. 3) A untrained dog running up to the fence acting like it is trying to bit me does not mean he will.
4) If the man is running away I am not conserned. Too much prey= ball and Swiss Army knife, or no threat no fiight. 5) If you need for a dog to chase you need prey and it makes training a lot easier and fun. 6) I do not. I see a of out of balanced prey ridden sport dogs but few schutzhund. 8) No. You can bring out some drive in a low drive dog but you can not bring out something it does not have. You will never make a low defense dog strong in defense nor can you take a low prey dog a high prey driven animal. If I could I would pick up mixed breed strays for free and enjoy the better health and less upkeep.
Those other tools are not so easy either. It is not so easy to pull that trigger. I am not saying you personally but there a lot of guns taken away by attackers. A dog that threatens or warns is very a useful tool, but I would rather my dogs back that warning, and that is the dirrerence between pointing a gun and pulling the trigger. BUT there is a lot more liabilty for my way. This is what is cool about this, this is not a right and wrong, just different opinions.
Many years ago a gun carrying man inquired about a pertection dog I had for sale for $3500 (he carried lots of cash for a check cashing business). His opinion was this dog was too much money. 3 weeks later a woman drove up with a badly beaten man in her car to find out he had been robed of $50,000 and a 2 and a half week stay in the hospital. Again he asked how much for the dog and I told him $3500 and he said he seemed much cheaper today. He replaced the dog at age 12 with another dog.
I am neither a woman or little so I will not speak for eather, but crimes against them are close to my heart. I am not trying to offend anyone, I love to discuss these things. There is nothing that will stop crime. I am just trying to help slow it down and prevent it from happening to me.
GSDstudent.. I got my first GSD in 1973
1) He has no progeny and that type of dog is hard to sell. 3) A untrained dog running up to the fence acting like it is trying to bit me does not mean he will.
4) If the man is running away I am not conserned. Too much prey= ball and Swiss Army knife, or no threat no fiight. 5) If you need for a dog to chase you need prey and it makes training a lot easier and fun. 6) I do not. I see a of out of balanced prey ridden sport dogs but few schutzhund. 8) No. You can bring out some drive in a low drive dog but you can not bring out something it does not have. You will never make a low defense dog strong in defense nor can you take a low prey dog a high prey driven animal. If I could I would pick up mixed breed strays for free and enjoy the better health and less upkeep.
by susie on 03 February 2014 - 19:02
gsdstudent - love your points, espacially points 3, 6, 7 - my English is too lousy for point 8, though...
We are not conform about point 5, but that´s no problem.
3) A lot of dogs sold to the police were raised in "pet"homes without structures and proper education.
A lot of the "top" competitors do buy their dogs out of "pet"homes.
6) The breed as a whole definitely became better, but people tend to remember the good, not the bad.
7) Yep
We are not conform about point 5, but that´s no problem.
3) A lot of dogs sold to the police were raised in "pet"homes without structures and proper education.
A lot of the "top" competitors do buy their dogs out of "pet"homes.
6) The breed as a whole definitely became better, but people tend to remember the good, not the bad.
7) Yep
by Paul Garrison on 03 February 2014 - 19:02
Hired
I own a Female Mali and most of them are nervie. She is social and aggressive. Loves the fight, love to frighten anyone she can. She guards the truck like her life depends on it, and bites like Mother Teresa. You might be able to shake her off of the sleeve. When the neighbors get near the fence she acts like she is going to kill them. Anybody that is alowed to pet her they are friends for life. My Pirry dog (a GSD) had it all with great nerve He was a very well rounded dog with good prey hight fight and good defense and was a man eater. I had relationship and control. I do not know if someone could come up and pet the dog or not, no one I knew had the balls. I would rather have him back then my house. I also had a black GSD (never got his papers) Hungrarian import took me 13 months to bond well enough that he did not warn me when I gave him a verbal correction. Once we were bonded he did not care what I did with him or to him. Wow he was hard, nasty and just mean. Great nurve.
A dog with too much defense is a time bomb. You apply too much pressure and they will lose control. Now whether they run or just eat someone you just do not know what they will do until it is too late. Once a dog quits you it's all over. It will always be an opition to the dog and I think there is quit in most dogs it pushed far enough and hard enough, and nervie dogs have it sooner.
I own a Female Mali and most of them are nervie. She is social and aggressive. Loves the fight, love to frighten anyone she can. She guards the truck like her life depends on it, and bites like Mother Teresa. You might be able to shake her off of the sleeve. When the neighbors get near the fence she acts like she is going to kill them. Anybody that is alowed to pet her they are friends for life. My Pirry dog (a GSD) had it all with great nerve He was a very well rounded dog with good prey hight fight and good defense and was a man eater. I had relationship and control. I do not know if someone could come up and pet the dog or not, no one I knew had the balls. I would rather have him back then my house. I also had a black GSD (never got his papers) Hungrarian import took me 13 months to bond well enough that he did not warn me when I gave him a verbal correction. Once we were bonded he did not care what I did with him or to him. Wow he was hard, nasty and just mean. Great nurve.
A dog with too much defense is a time bomb. You apply too much pressure and they will lose control. Now whether they run or just eat someone you just do not know what they will do until it is too late. Once a dog quits you it's all over. It will always be an opition to the dog and I think there is quit in most dogs it pushed far enough and hard enough, and nervie dogs have it sooner.
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