Brindle German Shepherd Dog - Page 6

We've had numerous threads on this.  My thoughts are much what has already been written here.  It would be possible to 'hide' the presence of the brindle allele through countless generations, particularly in the lines that have heavy shading of black pigment and also if the brindle had low expression ie. minimal dark striping, but the chances of this are pretty slim.  I'm with the theory that it has been reintroduced, along with dominant black, from another breed.

Elkoor - thank you for mentioning the Erich-coat. I forgot entirely about that dog. And yes it is a shame that the owner of Konig isn't available... it would be interesting to see what exactly is the gene for that odd look.

@Pod How it expresses on GSD sable aw is just how you would expect.  The dark stripes are less obvious being partially hidden by the extra eumelanin pigment but their visibility will be in proportion to the density of dark pigment.  I've seen this pattern in the Finnish Lapphund.
Sorry if I misunderstand as I am studying right now for university exams but are you saying that agouti + brindle woudn't be as obvious as some would think? Or that it is more obvious than you'd think? Do you have any finnish lapphund references as I've been researching that breed and never seen any brindle / agouti color combinations yet

What I'm saying GSDlg is that brindle expresses where phaeomelanin pigment is present so that a dark dog, with a lot of eumelanin, would show little of the brindle pattern whereas a light dog with lots of phaeo would show more brindling.  Brindle is dark stripes on a light background not vice versa.  This applies to all patterns in the Agouti locus from the lightest sable to the totally black dog that has no tan pigment for the brindle to show but still he has black stripes on a black background.

I do have photo of a brindle wolf sable Lapphund that I took in Finland some years ago.  Sorry but I'm about to go away for a few days.  If you're not in any particular hurry I
could have a look for it when I come back.  

@ pod - whenever is fine. I am going away on a week trip myself next week... need a break from school.

@ BlackthornGSD regarding Konig the only thing I can say is that one of the non-photographed dogs wasn't black & tan but I wouldn't necessarily say it was an outside breed. I mean FH - Fahrtenhund - is if I remember correctly tracking title and SchH - Schutzhund indicates a slightly more working line than Ch. and show dogs. I might be wrong, I'm not familiar with the dogs in his pedigree.

However if you look at his father's mother [V Halla von der Baiertalerstraße] the immediate non-photoed dog she comes from one identified black & tan dog [VA1 Visum von Arminius] and then look at Halla's progeny and they are all black & tan. If there was some other dog breed introduced I'd say we'd be seeing odder looking animals for 42 photos.

The only real odd looking one is this

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=125250

There's some poor marked dogs but nothing unusual such as that above. Same with Halla's siblings which numbers over 1000

So I looked at Arminius --- can someone confirm he actually fathered so many offspring?

They are by and large black & tans of varying intensity. 932 photographed http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=129&p=progeny-pictures

Of that there are two long furred dogs I immediately identified - but long fur is a recessive GSD trait on occasion
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=387073
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=485534

 

Sorry for double posting but the forum just doesn't like me.

Anyways

Ariminus also fathered this dog

  

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=128579

Which gave rise to this dog
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=698308 which might be another brindle or just a poor photograph????

So finally looked at Ariminus's father Jeck vom Noricum with over 2000 progeny and over 1000 of them photographed.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=89&p=progeny-pictures
Again a vast majority of these are black and tans.

This dog made me wonder as it shows one of the old old photos in placemen of the dog's actual appearance. Beowulf or one of the others of that time frame but the black & white photo shows a brindled animal making me wonder if it was brindle.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=393911
There's no offspring to check by

Now what of this dog another brindle or is its coat just odd? All it's offspring are again black & tan.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=94165&p=progeny-pictures

Another brindle or again just the coat type?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=72315


So I decided let's try the other side
V Athos vom Hasenborn's son looks kind of brindled to me
 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=698298


Now I want to ask a question in going through Konig's pedigree what is THIS?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=612370

Is it sable? Is it faded black & tan?

I have seen a few of these dogs throughout and am wondering what exactly it is.


I am going to keep going through and seeing what I find but if people could review the above and comment that would be great.

If we can't gene type the dog maybe identifying by phenotype - look - might give a hint as to what caused that "brindled" appearance.

You missed my point--which is that just because a dog is registered with Dog X as sire and Dog Y as dam does not guarantee (in the days before DNA testing) that the dog's parents were X and Y.

The dog you ask about in your second post, Baerbl (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=612370) is a sable, as is her father and her father's mother.

Christine

You missed my point--which is that just because a dog is registered with Dog X as sire and Dog Y as dam does not guarantee (in the days before DNA testing) that the dog's parents were X and Y.

Wasn't DNA testing introduced by the AKC around 2000 though?

http://www.akc.org/dna/dna_update.cfm
In 1998, when the program was introduced, 89% of the litters tested had correct parentage, within 5 years the level of correct parentage had improved to 95% where it has been relatively constant ever since

Konig was born 2005, father - multiple sire so probably has to be DNA tested - was 2000.

I believe the UKC doesn't include it.

.
And thanks for clarifying about  the dog in question. I am used to DDR sables so richly marked animals. To me the dog looks like a bizarrely marked black & tan than anything.

OK, so first off, a dog's parentage isn't tested unless someone requests it--a registered dog is not automatically tested against the DNA on file. Second, testing on a stud dog would require 7 litters to have been registered: "Effective for litters whelped on or after July 1, 2000, AKC DNA Profiling is required if a stud dog is classified as a Frequently Used Sire, meaning that he has produced seven or more litters in his lifetime or more than three litters in a calendar year." So this dog's sire may or may not be tested. And dams are not required to be tested. (The biggest thing the DNA requirement has done is force puppy millers to move to their own kennel club (Continental Kennel Club) because of the risk of getting in trouble for not really tracking their litter parentage. So we have idea whether any DNA testing was done on this example or whether his registered parents are as stated.)

Finally, I wasn't referring to this specific case alone. But in this case, because there is no obvious transmission of the known brindle gene through his stated parentage, I think he either he is a result of parentage other than what is listed or he is a result of brindle that isn't from the K^br gene (mutation, chimera, etc.).

Christine

I just ran across this thread. This pup has interesting markings. Looks like brindle bleed through...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/185960-not-your-typical-black-sable.html

I have seen a number of 'all blacks' in England in recent years who have that 'bleed thru'
brindle effect on their lower limbs;  sometimes they have started darker as pups and the
mottling has only shown up as they matured.