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by joanro on 18 February 2012 - 14:02
"hardest dogs", meaning what? Is that dangerous man killer? Not being faceitious, but I don't think a hard dog needs to be dangerous towards people nor does the hardest dog mean it has unsound temperament. What would be used to gauge and differentiate the "hard dog" from the "hardest dog"? In weight pulls the strongest dog in the competition pulls the most weight the farthest, but as for hardest dogs? Short of killing a dog to make it release it's grip and the dog maintaining the desire to catch and hold afterwards is a pretty fair test of hardness. Especially when that focus is the same working in protection training. A really hard dog not only needs power, he also needs "heart" (the love for the challenge):)
by Felloffher on 18 February 2012 - 18:02
So, who breeds the hardest dogs?
by Red Sable on 18 February 2012 - 23:02
Me. Due mid April. Guaranteed hard.
Sire
Dam
Sire
Dam
by BritneyP on 20 February 2012 - 00:02
two thumbs up, Red Sable! ;)
by GSDPACK on 20 February 2012 - 00:02
RS I want one, that will be the HARDEST litter ever!
by doggiedoo on 03 March 2012 - 02:03
by Preston on 04 March 2012 - 08:03
Some GSDs tend to be energetic, very confident and dominant, insensitive to correction and have a high pain threshold. I had a WL dog out of two IPO3 V rated imports that was like this. When we picked him the breeder tried to discourage us feeling he might be too much for a family 24/7 in home pet. This dog was aggressive, physically strong, a brute, a product of an outcross and very robust. We wanted a "hard dog" after having a spooky American bred GSD that was afraid of his own shadow. So we found a top breeder of GSDs from import parents and stud dogs who placed highly in the profung in Germany.
The puppy we bought was quite insensitive to correction and we had to use a pinch collar to get proper control of him during obediance. He was also insensitive to gunfire or any loud noises which he ran toward. He was the dominant puppy in his litter, and pushed other puppies out of his way until he ate all he wanted. He grew up to be very territorially dominant in our home and fenced in yard. He was almost too much for a 24/7 in home pet. The first couple of years it was a struggle to keep showing him we (wife and I) were the pack leaders, not him. During his first year he went through many nylabones and some furniture too. He was the kind of dog that if challenged in any way would respond to intimidate and get control, he had fire in the eyes that one sees occasionally in Czech border dogs and french ring sport dogs and he was alway itching for a chance to prove his dominance. Yet good around our kids and neighbor kids, threatening initially to most male adult visitors until he knew we accepted them. He had a very high pain threshold, for example when given injections at the vet or having blood drawn he would wag his tail and show no reaction. In my view this was a hard dog. When we tested him green in a dark warehouse with an agitator (my friend who trained dogs) he relished the opportunity to fight when challenged in any way. I always had to muzzle him and hold him down to trim his nails and he never accepted this, it was always a battle royal, and yet aterwards it was like it never happened.
Would he have been a good police dog? My friend who trained some thought so, but I'm not so sure, because I think he may have been too quick to get aggressive and too task oriented to stop suddenly if commanded once engaging in any challenge. I think much of his hardness was his aggressiveness, physically strength and dominance, his high threshold for pain, and these traits made it harder to control him at times. He had moderate prey drive and a great deal of courage which I would define as his willingness to engage anyone making any aggressive gestures toward him or family or friends and to do so with relish. When doing bitework even though he came to understand the helper was a friend, he would bite as if this guy as if it was a real criminal and with actual stick hits he would fight even harder. I never had any other GSD like this before or after him, but I know that his breeder produced quite a few for the police. And I know that Yellowrose acquired some like this from him. This was back in 1989 and I don't see many like this any more except for some of the local Czech import police dogs which some handlers call boneheads because they tend to lock on to task too much which makes training much more difficult although the final result seems to be good. The moral of the story, be careful what you ask for when you buy a WL puppy for a 24/7 in home family pet and want "hardness". It may be more than you can easily handle and you might find yourself with a high energy, high maintenance dog that requires a lot of exercise and attention and that is a big liability, requiring close supervision.
The puppy we bought was quite insensitive to correction and we had to use a pinch collar to get proper control of him during obediance. He was also insensitive to gunfire or any loud noises which he ran toward. He was the dominant puppy in his litter, and pushed other puppies out of his way until he ate all he wanted. He grew up to be very territorially dominant in our home and fenced in yard. He was almost too much for a 24/7 in home pet. The first couple of years it was a struggle to keep showing him we (wife and I) were the pack leaders, not him. During his first year he went through many nylabones and some furniture too. He was the kind of dog that if challenged in any way would respond to intimidate and get control, he had fire in the eyes that one sees occasionally in Czech border dogs and french ring sport dogs and he was alway itching for a chance to prove his dominance. Yet good around our kids and neighbor kids, threatening initially to most male adult visitors until he knew we accepted them. He had a very high pain threshold, for example when given injections at the vet or having blood drawn he would wag his tail and show no reaction. In my view this was a hard dog. When we tested him green in a dark warehouse with an agitator (my friend who trained dogs) he relished the opportunity to fight when challenged in any way. I always had to muzzle him and hold him down to trim his nails and he never accepted this, it was always a battle royal, and yet aterwards it was like it never happened.
Would he have been a good police dog? My friend who trained some thought so, but I'm not so sure, because I think he may have been too quick to get aggressive and too task oriented to stop suddenly if commanded once engaging in any challenge. I think much of his hardness was his aggressiveness, physically strength and dominance, his high threshold for pain, and these traits made it harder to control him at times. He had moderate prey drive and a great deal of courage which I would define as his willingness to engage anyone making any aggressive gestures toward him or family or friends and to do so with relish. When doing bitework even though he came to understand the helper was a friend, he would bite as if this guy as if it was a real criminal and with actual stick hits he would fight even harder. I never had any other GSD like this before or after him, but I know that his breeder produced quite a few for the police. And I know that Yellowrose acquired some like this from him. This was back in 1989 and I don't see many like this any more except for some of the local Czech import police dogs which some handlers call boneheads because they tend to lock on to task too much which makes training much more difficult although the final result seems to be good. The moral of the story, be careful what you ask for when you buy a WL puppy for a 24/7 in home family pet and want "hardness". It may be more than you can easily handle and you might find yourself with a high energy, high maintenance dog that requires a lot of exercise and attention and that is a big liability, requiring close supervision.
by brynjulf on 04 March 2012 - 15:03
I am the only person on this board who does NOT want a hard dog. Too much work . I want a dog I dont have to correct 45 times. I want biddability. Do i appreciate these hard dogs yup , but I also see the WORK that goes into making these dogs into a working dog. I like a dog who is resiliant to correction and who is also biddable. Alot of these hard dogs have no desire what so ever to work with you. But the effort to make them a working partner is just not worth it in my books. So i look for biddability and resiliance first! Hard in not the first thing I look for in a working partner. Other things are so much more important.
by doggiedoo on 04 March 2012 - 16:03
The term hardness has a great variance of meanings between people...
I would say that you can have a "hard" but very biddable dog as well...that they are not related for the most part...
What is "hard"? anyways....to me it just means how it deals with and recovers from negative input, pain or stress. A high pain threshold, does not equal hard to me either, the hardness comes into play once the dog does feel pain.
Handler hard?
Pain hard?
Helper hard?
Hard Hard?
I would say that you can have a "hard" but very biddable dog as well...that they are not related for the most part...
What is "hard"? anyways....to me it just means how it deals with and recovers from negative input, pain or stress. A high pain threshold, does not equal hard to me either, the hardness comes into play once the dog does feel pain.
Handler hard?
Pain hard?
Helper hard?
Hard Hard?
by kt484 on 11 March 2012 - 02:03
ok the final question again is which breeders breed the hard dogs?????????
or bloodlines
or bloodlines
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