Herding lines? - Page 6

As Gustav said in response to the OP's actual question, before the thread went off in another direction...there are a few lines known for this. To expand on his suggestions, Eicke vom Haus Kind (now retired) was actually actively working when she was purchased and brought to the states by Steve Lino. She has had several very nice litters w/pups who will be hopefully producing soon. I don't know exactly how many breedings she had, but I know of at least one daughter who is in the process of being titled in hopes of breeding. Getting a grandson or daughter out of a dog who actually did this day in and day out and was a "real" working dog is probably as close as you can get to any kind of "guarantee" the dog will possess the necessary traits.

It's just a personal thing, but while training and trials are great, I'll take the dog who's actually doing it over a dog who got a title in a mock-up of it, any day. Not to say the titles don't say anything about herding capability, just meaning that if you can still find a working shepherd dog, or a close link, then go for it! They seem to be a dying breed.

I'm pretty sure Ulf works his herding GSDs "for real", every day - since sheep are what he does for a living.   The HGH is a test of the training, just as other titles are - a test.

molly

<<It's just a personal thing, but while training and trials are great, I'll take the dog who's actually doing it over a dog who got a title in a mock-up of it, any day. Not to say the titles don't say anything about herding capability, just meaning that if you can still find a working shepherd dog, or a close link, then go for it! They seem to be a dying breed.>>

The point is not without merit. To further that, there are GSDs that are great in every day herding but never really score way high in a trial because they work in a different manner than required in the HGH trial. On the other hand, there are dogs that obtained a title whose work is pleasantly to watch yet they don’t have it what it takes in the real world. Well, all trials have limitations but one can always go to a trial, they are always public and announced, and can get an opinion him- or herself.

I disagree with your assessment of working GSDs dying out. There are still plenty but they always have been the minority and they have been pronounced dead for many decades now. Yet, they still exist and continue to exist. I have no problems finding enough suitable blood lines.
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Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
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“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan

 Thanks again Ulf for your comments..as usual very usefull and so true! Altought I have not worked with so many sheeps (we don't have access here at such big flocks) I would love to see my girl in front of 200 or 400 hundred sheep...she is tought with small numbers and I would love to see her reacting with a flock that is less reactive...Small flocks usually move quickly and feel the pressure as soon as they see the dog.  Maybe the larger flocks just feel more secure or confident being in such great numbers...much more challenging!

I have to agree a 100% about dogs performing well on trials and the ones who really have it for doing the job everyday..I'm still new at herding but I did schutzhund and find you can make the same assessement.  I've seen wonders on the field and great scoring dogs who in a real life situation wouldn't make such great working dogs..and i've seen great working dogs doing not so good on the scoring sheets...I too prefer the second ones...

Thanks, Jenni and others for bringing the topic back around.  I've enjoyed reading all the posts.  We raise horses and have a few cattle around.  My husband raised Australian Shepherds for years so we are familiar with training working dogs.  We have a wonderful 7yo GSD male who badly wants to work the horses and cattle but has no clue how.  He was 18 months old when we got him so we missed out on precious training time.  We keep working with him, but I'm not sure he'll ever really figure it out.  In terms of temperament, though, he's a great ambassador for the breed and we'd love to find a dog that's like him with some "cow sense" so to speak.  I'll definitely check into the lines mentioned in this thread.  Thanks for the education!

Kathy

<<I have to agree a 100% about dogs performing well on trials and the ones who really have it for doing the job everyday..I'm still new at herding but I did schutzhund and find you can make the same assessement. I've seen wonders on the field and great scoring dogs who in a real life situation wouldn't make such great working dogs..and i've seen great working dogs doing not so good on the scoring sheets...I too prefer the second ones...>>

All true but I just like to add this: I have known people who belittled trials and didn’t care to compete in them. They claimed a trial can’t tell them what they don’t already know and scores meant nothing to them. That is fine. Here is the risk: You may find yourself soon in a situation comparable to kennel blindness. You think your dogs are good working dogs but you are alone in your assessment. The outside world doesn’t share your biased evaluation about your dogs. Yep, that can happen and it has happened many time. I continue avoiding this by continued participation in trials even though I do have already a good idea how valuable each dog is in the real world at my farm. This way I am getting a qualified opinion and validation at the trial and I prove to the public the value of my dogs, they don’t have to take my word for it.

Trials remain a very valuable tool in the assessment of dogs. It is our error when we expect a trial to represent the real world or when we are to assume that the highest scoring dog is indeed the best dog when a trial will fail us. If we see it as what it is, a valuable test, no more, no less, then we should embrace trials. But von Stephanitz said that much more eloquently than me:

“Trials always remain trials, they can never be completely like real life,
same as the exercise can never be equal to war. But we can all recognize if
the leader and his troops are ready for the real thing,and so it is for
trials. It is the responsibility of the judges to conclude based on the
exercises and the way in which they were solved, if the dog is suited for
work. Of course the mistakes of the handler and of the training must be
taken into account. Such a judgement about the suitability for work is
useful for the breeding effort. But you cannot demand more from a trial,
otherwise it will become a goal in itself, a sport, and will harm instead
of being useful to the breeding effort. We must realize that we do not breed
and work for exhibitions or trials but for our breed and to serve the
general public (common good).Trial artists do not serve this purpose
anymore than empty exhibition winners, and performance trials are to real
work as a school exam is to real life, as many pupils will fail in real life
that excelled in school exams and had an excellent final report.”

(p.1130 Max v Stephanitz Der Deutsche Schaeferhund in Wort und Bild 8th
edition 2nd replication print of 1932 edition, SV 1987)


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Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
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“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan

 I just saw this thread, and wanted to post.  I know someone had asked for the contact info for the NJ club...here is a link.

http://herdingbeaucerons.com/

I started training there with my GSD late last year, it has been a lot of fun.  I am hoping to do her HGH in the fall (maybe also her Schh2 and/or 3 around that time too so we'll be busy).
She is doing a really nice job, starting out it wasn't so pretty because of her high prey drive...it took some time for her to figure out that she had to maintain the border, but now she is doing really nicely.  

I also wanted to add that my dog is not from herding lines, although she does go back to some Kirschental dogs in the 5th+ generation.  Her pedigree is primarily strong schutzhund lines.  

phgsd... can you post her pedigree?  I'd love to see what you're working with! 

Heather

Sure here's a link:
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/458805.html

Kessy is just an awesome working dog, she loves herding and I'm also really enjoying it.  The snow has been killing us lately...we've missed a lot of lessons over the last few weeks :( 
This pic was taken in December.

Thank you, I love seeing what "non herding" lines people are doing herding with!   Some very small similarities in there with my female too.  Some Lord, and a touch of kirschental way back.  I'm always curious about Waldwinkel dogs, they stand out to me an appeal when I see them.  That's a great picture, she looks good.  I can't wait to see my dog with more sheep like that.  

Heather