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by momosgarage on 03 February 2012 - 17:02
EliDog and afwark15, I am not saying you are wrong, but taking your position will mean the END of non-business schutzhund in the USA within 20 years or less.
Don't mistake what I am saying, these folks will NEVER EARN a SchH 3. But by handholding them through a BH, AD and OB-1 they will come to view schutzhund as a legitimate training venue. They DO NOT currently view the sport as legitimate, let alone a place to learn how to effectively train dogs. Schutzhund needs the support base from averge joes. Just look at Grey Hound racing as an current example of schutzhund's future. They didn't get the word out and relied on old time fans to keep them afloat. Young folks thought it was cruel, many laws were passed and now there aren't many tracks left in the USA. Profits have fallen because only "old people" still go to them. All sports need young "half-assers" with a postive opinion of the activity to survive!
There is NO other solution now, other than to start sugar coating for the current "half-assers", hoping that thier children will be the ones to jump in the deep end and take the whole thing seriously. Schutzhund as a whole has waited too long to groom the future, so now an ugly compromise will be required for minimal survival. Demographics is deciding for us. Ignoring the trends I pointed out, will mean the end of the sport for civillians.
I am seeing both ends. I am AKC club member who came from a Schtzhund family and still try to stay up to date with the industry. Shutzhund is losing out big time, the Victoria Stilwell's and Victoria Well's of the world are shoveling the dirt on the grave that the schtzhund folks dug for themselves. The next gerneration has already been captivated and knows no other way to handle and train dogs. Outside of professional law enforcement and the military, the dog world will soon be one big "Its me or the Dog" training environment. (i.e. meaning as young folks get older they will be the ones screaming "animal cruelty" because you use a pinch collar; afterall the Victoria's know best, not those cruel schtzhund folks!).
I am not willing to wait for them to decide they want to "occupy" schtzhund for animal cruelty. Take away thier pitchforks NOW!
Don't mistake what I am saying, these folks will NEVER EARN a SchH 3. But by handholding them through a BH, AD and OB-1 they will come to view schutzhund as a legitimate training venue. They DO NOT currently view the sport as legitimate, let alone a place to learn how to effectively train dogs. Schutzhund needs the support base from averge joes. Just look at Grey Hound racing as an current example of schutzhund's future. They didn't get the word out and relied on old time fans to keep them afloat. Young folks thought it was cruel, many laws were passed and now there aren't many tracks left in the USA. Profits have fallen because only "old people" still go to them. All sports need young "half-assers" with a postive opinion of the activity to survive!
There is NO other solution now, other than to start sugar coating for the current "half-assers", hoping that thier children will be the ones to jump in the deep end and take the whole thing seriously. Schutzhund as a whole has waited too long to groom the future, so now an ugly compromise will be required for minimal survival. Demographics is deciding for us. Ignoring the trends I pointed out, will mean the end of the sport for civillians.
I am seeing both ends. I am AKC club member who came from a Schtzhund family and still try to stay up to date with the industry. Shutzhund is losing out big time, the Victoria Stilwell's and Victoria Well's of the world are shoveling the dirt on the grave that the schtzhund folks dug for themselves. The next gerneration has already been captivated and knows no other way to handle and train dogs. Outside of professional law enforcement and the military, the dog world will soon be one big "Its me or the Dog" training environment. (i.e. meaning as young folks get older they will be the ones screaming "animal cruelty" because you use a pinch collar; afterall the Victoria's know best, not those cruel schtzhund folks!).
I am not willing to wait for them to decide they want to "occupy" schtzhund for animal cruelty. Take away thier pitchforks NOW!
by EliDog on 03 February 2012 - 21:02
Sorry there is just to much of a challenge involved for most of the younger people to really get into the sport. They can't text, twitter or post to facebook and train at the same time so who do you think is going to win out? I know maybe someone should invent some sort of virual IPO game for Xbox360 or PS3.
Just sticking around and doing obedience is not IPO.
Keith
by MaliGirl on 04 February 2012 - 05:02
I agree with Momosgarage. You have to look at the big picture Keith - Obedience only and Tracking Only titles are offered at IPO Trials........much like the AKC. If people who only want to compete in one or two (ob/tr) at least come out and SEE for themselves that SchH/IPO is not a cruel sport by watching those members in the club that are actually going for the IPO titles - it is a good thing for the sport. I have and do encourage people that are involved in AKC to title their dogs in OB/Tracking in IPO - have had more then a few decide that they wanted to go for the SchH titles in the end and several who actually at least got their SchH1. More imporantly they learned about the sport - that it is not about cruelty......always nice to have a few more people on the side of the sport in this day and age.
by EliDog on 04 February 2012 - 15:02
You want to split hairs about what IPO actually is then by all means do so. Clubs full of people who desire or are only capable of obedience and/or tracking aren't going to keep the sport alive either. My stance was and is that I'm not going to lie about what it takes to title for IPO. It's not an easy road even with a good dog and I find it disingenuous to sugar coat for someone just so they give it a twirl. I always have encouraged people over the years to come out and watch but have found for the most part most just aren't willing to commit to what it takes to complete the journey. Or you have the other end of the spectrum who only want to show up for bite-work and get bent when they get sent packing.
I help someone to the best of my ability as long as they are willing to commit. I understand everyone and every dog is not a world competitor but people need to put forth at least a good faith effort. Let's be realistic, it is not that easy to weather the elements half the day for obedience at club as 99.99% of all IPO clubs don't have access to indoor facilities. Most either freeze their butt off during winter and try to keep from getting heat stroke during the summer. Then we come to tracking, same deal with the elements then you add in the factor of trying to secure tracking areas.
Keith
I help someone to the best of my ability as long as they are willing to commit. I understand everyone and every dog is not a world competitor but people need to put forth at least a good faith effort. Let's be realistic, it is not that easy to weather the elements half the day for obedience at club as 99.99% of all IPO clubs don't have access to indoor facilities. Most either freeze their butt off during winter and try to keep from getting heat stroke during the summer. Then we come to tracking, same deal with the elements then you add in the factor of trying to secure tracking areas.
Keith
by Littlebit on 06 February 2012 - 01:02
We need to hold the UScA, AWDF and FCI officers and judges to a higher standard. Clubs need to have open books and if questioned officers need to be held responsible for their actions. Accountability and transparency needs to be held by all and at every level. I don't know call me old fashion but right is right and wrong is wrong no matter what office you hold in what organization.
Jodi McCaw
MSSV Member
Jodi McCaw
MSSV Member
by momosgarage on 22 February 2012 - 20:02
EliDog, I am afraid you are DEAD WRONG and the sport will soon be DEAD, if others actually agree with your position. Clubs full of people who desire or are only capable of obedience and/or tracking are the ONLY THING that will keep the sport alive when the Millennials and Gen Y'ers truly come of age and have thier collective "mid life cisis". I don't want "freeing dogs of shutzhund cruety" to be the focal point of their upcomming gernerational mid-life-crisis. This age bracket certainly won't be buying the 68' Mustang they always wanted or buying all the old comic books thier parents threw out when they hit thier 40's 50's. The current under 30 crowd has known nothing other than the internet, facebook, apps, joblessness and occupy wallstreet. Its just that during thier mid-life-crisis they will finally participate in that "occupy cause" they always wish they had done more of when they were younger, looking for work, while living in thier parents basement.
They will be comming for us, don't fool yourself into thinking it can't happen. Too bad this thread won't be around to be seen in 20 years. I'd be hailed as a messiah!
They will be comming for us, don't fool yourself into thinking it can't happen. Too bad this thread won't be around to be seen in 20 years. I'd be hailed as a messiah!
by zdog on 22 February 2012 - 23:02
Think about all the things I stated earlier about Gen Y and Millenials:
1) Insist on using harness like contraptions for training
I've seen many over 40 using harnesses what's your point?
2) Most have sub 15 pound dogs or some kind mastiff breed (usually a pitbull)
3) Overwhelmingly support animal rights causes
4) May view dog sports with bite work as cruel
Most don't view it as anything, they don't know. Just like the rest of us before we got started and those with interest looked further and our perceptions changed. I just gave a presentation to 40 people and used my dog sport as my intro and people went fricking nuts. They loved it, all of it. I have people asking questions 3 weeks later when they run into me. They hardlly viewed it as cruel. It's not an isolated incident. I've found most people are like that.
5) Most likely have never had a large dog in thier youth, most had pocket pets and if lucky a cat or small dog like a Chihuahua because thier parents thought those were "safer choices"
I never grew up with a dog, we had cats when I was in high school. I didn't know a thing about Schutzhund till I was 30. never even heard about it. Now i've put 4 titles on different dogs, have 2 more, do helper work at 2 clubs and train every chance I get.
6) Most live in apartments and those that do live in homes, have landlords that prefer cats, chihuahuas and malteses, while outright banning GSDs, Dobermans and Rottweilers.
I lived in an apartment, 3 of them in fact. Had 2 dogs in them, never had a problem. We just sold our home and moved into a duplex, 2 working dogs here too, GSD's in fact. I do bitework in my backyard. The neighbors love it and the owner has no issues. It's not the first place we've done this at.
7) They are economically strained and in my opinion aren't likley to have any big salary gains in thier careers over the next decade
Who isn't economically strained? Do you actually compete in this sport? yeah there are some money bags in the sport, and I've known just as many that show up in their beat up truck, having to stop and fix it twice on the way to training as anybody else. There are all sorts from soccer moms to redneck hillbillies in this sport and from all sorts of economic backgrounds. yeah money helps, it helps about anything, but also like everything else where there's a will there's a way. Dog sport is no different.
8) Are only aware of AKC venues for dog training and titling due to Animal Planet
That is true, and I don't know that it's going to change any time soon, no matter what we do. They usually show agility or dog shows, neither of which has anything to do with what we do. I can't remember if I've ever seen an OB or tracking competition on Animal Planet. Have seen a lot of Police K-9 shows though, those seem to be well recieved.
9) Most likey expect a LOT of hand holding while getting trained, which many schutzhund clubs don't like doing, but AKC clubs will do.
have never been a part of an AKC club, but have known quite a few in them. They don't seem to be much different than the general mix I see anywhere else.
And to top of all the above, you guys are saying "well, you need money for this sport and without a lot of time dedication and financial sacrifice we would prefer you go elsewhere, otherwise you are wasting out time"
Actually I would prefer it too :) Truth is, we take in anybody willing to work. We put our time, energy and help wherever we can. We always do, I always have. I know what it's like to be new at something. But I gotta say, over the years i've wasted a lot of time on those that didn't have dedication or sacrafice and most certainly took away from the rest of us.
I'll do it again though, that's how I am. Those people usually fall by the wayside soon enough, not from anything we haven't given them, most because they dont' give enough themselves. It is work, it takes dedication and most simply don't want to put in that time. They want a 6 week course and a certificate at the end. They don't want 2+ years and maybe a chance to title and that's for over 30 or under.
WHO UNDER THE AGE OF 30 IS GOING TO BUY INTO ALL THIS, LET ALONE BEING ABLE TO AFFORD OWNING A GSD?
1) Insist on using harness like contraptions for training
I've seen many over 40 using harnesses what's your point?
2) Most have sub 15 pound dogs or some kind mastiff breed (usually a pitbull)
3) Overwhelmingly support animal rights causes
4) May view dog sports with bite work as cruel
Most don't view it as anything, they don't know. Just like the rest of us before we got started and those with interest looked further and our perceptions changed. I just gave a presentation to 40 people and used my dog sport as my intro and people went fricking nuts. They loved it, all of it. I have people asking questions 3 weeks later when they run into me. They hardlly viewed it as cruel. It's not an isolated incident. I've found most people are like that.
5) Most likely have never had a large dog in thier youth, most had pocket pets and if lucky a cat or small dog like a Chihuahua because thier parents thought those were "safer choices"
I never grew up with a dog, we had cats when I was in high school. I didn't know a thing about Schutzhund till I was 30. never even heard about it. Now i've put 4 titles on different dogs, have 2 more, do helper work at 2 clubs and train every chance I get.
6) Most live in apartments and those that do live in homes, have landlords that prefer cats, chihuahuas and malteses, while outright banning GSDs, Dobermans and Rottweilers.
I lived in an apartment, 3 of them in fact. Had 2 dogs in them, never had a problem. We just sold our home and moved into a duplex, 2 working dogs here too, GSD's in fact. I do bitework in my backyard. The neighbors love it and the owner has no issues. It's not the first place we've done this at.
7) They are economically strained and in my opinion aren't likley to have any big salary gains in thier careers over the next decade
Who isn't economically strained? Do you actually compete in this sport? yeah there are some money bags in the sport, and I've known just as many that show up in their beat up truck, having to stop and fix it twice on the way to training as anybody else. There are all sorts from soccer moms to redneck hillbillies in this sport and from all sorts of economic backgrounds. yeah money helps, it helps about anything, but also like everything else where there's a will there's a way. Dog sport is no different.
8) Are only aware of AKC venues for dog training and titling due to Animal Planet
That is true, and I don't know that it's going to change any time soon, no matter what we do. They usually show agility or dog shows, neither of which has anything to do with what we do. I can't remember if I've ever seen an OB or tracking competition on Animal Planet. Have seen a lot of Police K-9 shows though, those seem to be well recieved.
9) Most likey expect a LOT of hand holding while getting trained, which many schutzhund clubs don't like doing, but AKC clubs will do.
have never been a part of an AKC club, but have known quite a few in them. They don't seem to be much different than the general mix I see anywhere else.
And to top of all the above, you guys are saying "well, you need money for this sport and without a lot of time dedication and financial sacrifice we would prefer you go elsewhere, otherwise you are wasting out time"
Actually I would prefer it too :) Truth is, we take in anybody willing to work. We put our time, energy and help wherever we can. We always do, I always have. I know what it's like to be new at something. But I gotta say, over the years i've wasted a lot of time on those that didn't have dedication or sacrafice and most certainly took away from the rest of us.
I'll do it again though, that's how I am. Those people usually fall by the wayside soon enough, not from anything we haven't given them, most because they dont' give enough themselves. It is work, it takes dedication and most simply don't want to put in that time. They want a 6 week course and a certificate at the end. They don't want 2+ years and maybe a chance to title and that's for over 30 or under.
WHO UNDER THE AGE OF 30 IS GOING TO BUY INTO ALL THIS, LET ALONE BEING ABLE TO AFFORD OWNING A GSD?
by momosgarage on 22 February 2012 - 23:02
zdog, there is nothing wrong with what you have stated above, when the "entire spectrum of participants" is considered, regardless of age. BUT, you are OUT OF TOUCH with the group I am profiling and are dead wrong if you think any of the above you have said applies to that age group as a whole across the USA.
We can disagree, but my guess is that you live in a region that is more accepting of rural activities, shooting, hunting, etc. Don't confuse your living in a region friendly to such activity as a means to disprove my points, because it is not. I recommend that you try not to get too comfortable because the "hipster" mentality can and will drop by your club or home and ruin your party if they get wind of it.
Ever heard of a "hipster" (not a hippie mind you, they are different). These kinds of folks will stop at NOTHING to make you and the sport look bad. The points I made, which you criticize, lead me to believe that you have NO IDEA or familiarity with the type of people I am making a warning about. They are real and are not a small group or minority perspective. They harbor negative opinions about things like schutzhund and this perspective gets more play in the media than people like us do (other than law enforcement using canines, but I noted that in an earlier post, I hope you read them all and answered within the complete context of my prior thoughts). I guess in a way you are lucky that you haven't dealt with any personally, if you did, you'd agree with me without a second thought.
But I warn you today, believe what you have stated above at your own peril when dealing with the under 30 crowd. What I said isn't nice and is definately stereotyping, but I still stand by it and I am sure other folks know and have seen the same first hand. These folks are the majority in the under 30 crowd and if you don't see image problems brewing and the possibility of having to deal with "pitchfolks" in your future as a schutzhund participant, I guess my warning won't be doing you any good until its too late and thier at YOUR club "occupying" it.
Think of the concept globally from this very simple perspective: Why does commercial vegetarian/vegan dog/cat food exist? Is it for the animlas health or the owners conscience? Companies have done the market research and PLAN on the type of people I describe above to BUY IT.
Here is a seemingly unrelated article with comments that clearly demonstrates the kind of mentality that I describe. Although these folks posting are talking about the legitamacy of a totally vegan/vegetarian society, its quite easy to plug in "animal cruelty in dog sports" and "humane training methods" and then clearly envision what we will most certainly be dealing with in future conflicts with the same "types of personalities". Make no mistake, these nonsensical opinions are highly concentrated in the 30 and under age bracket.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201106/why-do-most-vegetarians-go-back-eating-meat/comments
You've been warned, we just won't be posting here in the future to confirm the start date of the upcomming conflict.
My overall point?
Start sugar coating TODAY for the current "half-assers", hoping that thier children will be the ones to jump in the deep end and take the whole thing seriously. By handholding them through a BH, AD and OB-1 they will come to view schutzhund as a legitimate training venue. They DO NOT currently view the sport as legitimate, let alone a place to learn how to effectively train dogs. Schutzhund needs the support base from averge joes. Outside of professional law enforcement and the military, the dog world will soon be one big "Its me or the Dog" training environment because as young folks get older they will be the ones screaming "animal cruelty" because you use a pinch collar and Victoria Wells said never to use e-collars or pinch collars, due to them being cruel tools of torture.
We can disagree, but my guess is that you live in a region that is more accepting of rural activities, shooting, hunting, etc. Don't confuse your living in a region friendly to such activity as a means to disprove my points, because it is not. I recommend that you try not to get too comfortable because the "hipster" mentality can and will drop by your club or home and ruin your party if they get wind of it.
Ever heard of a "hipster" (not a hippie mind you, they are different). These kinds of folks will stop at NOTHING to make you and the sport look bad. The points I made, which you criticize, lead me to believe that you have NO IDEA or familiarity with the type of people I am making a warning about. They are real and are not a small group or minority perspective. They harbor negative opinions about things like schutzhund and this perspective gets more play in the media than people like us do (other than law enforcement using canines, but I noted that in an earlier post, I hope you read them all and answered within the complete context of my prior thoughts). I guess in a way you are lucky that you haven't dealt with any personally, if you did, you'd agree with me without a second thought.
But I warn you today, believe what you have stated above at your own peril when dealing with the under 30 crowd. What I said isn't nice and is definately stereotyping, but I still stand by it and I am sure other folks know and have seen the same first hand. These folks are the majority in the under 30 crowd and if you don't see image problems brewing and the possibility of having to deal with "pitchfolks" in your future as a schutzhund participant, I guess my warning won't be doing you any good until its too late and thier at YOUR club "occupying" it.
Think of the concept globally from this very simple perspective: Why does commercial vegetarian/vegan dog/cat food exist? Is it for the animlas health or the owners conscience? Companies have done the market research and PLAN on the type of people I describe above to BUY IT.
Here is a seemingly unrelated article with comments that clearly demonstrates the kind of mentality that I describe. Although these folks posting are talking about the legitamacy of a totally vegan/vegetarian society, its quite easy to plug in "animal cruelty in dog sports" and "humane training methods" and then clearly envision what we will most certainly be dealing with in future conflicts with the same "types of personalities". Make no mistake, these nonsensical opinions are highly concentrated in the 30 and under age bracket.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201106/why-do-most-vegetarians-go-back-eating-meat/comments
You've been warned, we just won't be posting here in the future to confirm the start date of the upcomming conflict.
My overall point?
Start sugar coating TODAY for the current "half-assers", hoping that thier children will be the ones to jump in the deep end and take the whole thing seriously. By handholding them through a BH, AD and OB-1 they will come to view schutzhund as a legitimate training venue. They DO NOT currently view the sport as legitimate, let alone a place to learn how to effectively train dogs. Schutzhund needs the support base from averge joes. Outside of professional law enforcement and the military, the dog world will soon be one big "Its me or the Dog" training environment because as young folks get older they will be the ones screaming "animal cruelty" because you use a pinch collar and Victoria Wells said never to use e-collars or pinch collars, due to them being cruel tools of torture.
by zdog on 23 February 2012 - 03:02
I most certainly am OUT OF TOUCH with whatever is touching you. I know plenty of the under 30 crowd and most are kids just like I was. They certainly aren't the majority. Schutzhund will continue to have problems with growth for many reasons. If it ceases to exist, I doubt the "hipsters" are going to have much to do with it. It's most likely the idiots that dont' actually participate in the sport, but claim allegiance and their dogs go on biting sprees. Or people will be driven away by bad behavior, or get sick and tired of the pettiness between those self serving interests that claim to "lead" the sport and organizations in this country. Those 3 things will have much more to do with schutzhund's downfall than any under 30 hipster.
by momosgarage on 23 February 2012 - 04:02
zdog, as I suspected, you did not read my earlier posts. I mentioned all those very same items, BEFORE I got into the reasons why I was profiling a particular age group. At least you admit you are out of touch with the younger folks. People in thier early 40's today have about as much in common with Millenials and Gen Y'ers as kids of the 1980's had in common with children of the 1930's. Essentially they had NOTHING in common and todays milenials and y'ers are no different from that example. The generation gap today is larger than it has ever been in history of the USA. For you to even think your childhood is anything like thiers means you are WAY out of the loop. Kids today don't play outside, go to jail for ditching school, text on electronic devices to communicate instead of talking and get suspended for pointing chicken fingers at someone and saying "pow-pow".
Hmm, sounds a lot like the childhood I had. Actually, NO, it doesn't, nor should it to you.
Unless of course you are thier age?
Hmm, sounds a lot like the childhood I had. Actually, NO, it doesn't, nor should it to you.
Unless of course you are thier age?
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