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by Dog1 on 05 July 2011 - 15:07
Both US organizations have a Universal competition in one form or another. I would think both organizations would like and need participation in their programs for them to be viable programs.
It dawned on me that neither organization have a checklist or some way for someone wanting to go for a Universal competition to figure it all out.
Between the requirements of the show side and the requirements of the working side along with who accepts what from the other organization,,,,,I'll bet there's not a person on this board that can map out the progression from puppy to Universal event participation. I'll bet the complexity of the system eliminates a large number of would be participants. Couple the system with the challenge to get a good dog and good training group and it's a monumental task.
Look at what each camp usually does.
Show side: Get a dog raise it, show it. If it's a decent conformation dog, send it to Germany and get it titled. Show it some more.
Working side: Get a dog and raise it. Train it from the beginning to develop good working habits and build upon the previous lessons. In the end you have a reliable dog that works.
Two different approaches. For the Universal, you have to do both equally well. How would you blend both specialties to arrive with a Universal contender? I would think you will have to begin with the working program and mix the conformation program in. The work is essential, the conformation is timing.
It dawned on me that neither organization have a checklist or some way for someone wanting to go for a Universal competition to figure it all out.
Between the requirements of the show side and the requirements of the working side along with who accepts what from the other organization,,,,,I'll bet there's not a person on this board that can map out the progression from puppy to Universal event participation. I'll bet the complexity of the system eliminates a large number of would be participants. Couple the system with the challenge to get a good dog and good training group and it's a monumental task.
Look at what each camp usually does.
Show side: Get a dog raise it, show it. If it's a decent conformation dog, send it to Germany and get it titled. Show it some more.
Working side: Get a dog and raise it. Train it from the beginning to develop good working habits and build upon the previous lessons. In the end you have a reliable dog that works.
Two different approaches. For the Universal, you have to do both equally well. How would you blend both specialties to arrive with a Universal contender? I would think you will have to begin with the working program and mix the conformation program in. The work is essential, the conformation is timing.
by Mystere on 05 July 2011 - 16:07
Most of the USCA Universal Siegers have been from the working lines. The reasons, IMO, are fairly straight-forward. The working line dog is bought and trained for the work from puppyhood, beginning with socialization, tracking, puppy obedience and baby bitework. They are titled honestly, most usually by the owner/handler, and a few weeks prior to a show, put through a bit of ring-training, assuming that it does not interfere with preparation for a trial.
Then, the dog is handed over to an experienced show handler for presentation in the show. The owner/handler will do the baiting/double-handling and, of course, the off leash heeling in the show. The dog receives its SG (because the dogs are often shown in the 18-24 month old class ( or V if already titled, well-structured and shown before the right judge/koermeister). After titling and an AD, the dog gets its breed survey and is essentially unlikely to be shown again....until the Sieger Show.
At the Sieger Show, the dog will get its SG rating from the judge/koermeister ( or V if, very well-structured and shown before the right judge/koermeister).
The dog and handler then proceed on the working trail: earning a 270 score in a club trial and "participating" in a regional championship. I say "participate" because that is what is required. The dog need not achieve a 270 score at the regionals; it need not even pass at the region, merely "participate." That "participation" can consist of performing in only one phase of the trial, and being pulled for illness/injury.
With its 270 score, regional participation, and Sieger Show rating, the dog enters the National Championship, usually with NO competition for the Universal Sieger title. In 2008 there were two entrants--that may be the only contested race. In 2008, both Universal Sieger competitors were show line dogs who had been trained, trialed and titled like working line dogs in working-oriented clubs. Those competitors were Ule v. Temar (Delta Sch Club in BC) and Juneau v Haus Tyson.
I may be wrong, but from what I know and have obseved, both of the 2008 competitors travelled essentially the same route as a working line entrant would, except, perhaps, having been shown more than just two or three times in their entire lifetimes.
Then, the dog is handed over to an experienced show handler for presentation in the show. The owner/handler will do the baiting/double-handling and, of course, the off leash heeling in the show. The dog receives its SG (because the dogs are often shown in the 18-24 month old class ( or V if already titled, well-structured and shown before the right judge/koermeister). After titling and an AD, the dog gets its breed survey and is essentially unlikely to be shown again....until the Sieger Show.
At the Sieger Show, the dog will get its SG rating from the judge/koermeister ( or V if, very well-structured and shown before the right judge/koermeister).
The dog and handler then proceed on the working trail: earning a 270 score in a club trial and "participating" in a regional championship. I say "participate" because that is what is required. The dog need not achieve a 270 score at the regionals; it need not even pass at the region, merely "participate." That "participation" can consist of performing in only one phase of the trial, and being pulled for illness/injury.
With its 270 score, regional participation, and Sieger Show rating, the dog enters the National Championship, usually with NO competition for the Universal Sieger title. In 2008 there were two entrants--that may be the only contested race. In 2008, both Universal Sieger competitors were show line dogs who had been trained, trialed and titled like working line dogs in working-oriented clubs. Those competitors were Ule v. Temar (Delta Sch Club in BC) and Juneau v Haus Tyson.
I may be wrong, but from what I know and have obseved, both of the 2008 competitors travelled essentially the same route as a working line entrant would, except, perhaps, having been shown more than just two or three times in their entire lifetimes.
by Dog1 on 05 July 2011 - 16:07
Mystere,
I think you're right. That's the pattern. It's the only way that makes sense too. There's too much lost when you don't train your own dog. T was able to pull it off, but that's T.
Don't forget the competition is both trial and conformation,,,,just as the breed standard is. Don't come up short in the show palacings by not being prepared. I'm not sure a SG rated dog is a contender. I think it takes a V rated working line dog as there are quite a few around.
Even though the Universal competition is a relatively new addition, hopefully it's getting some press and interest, some breeders have been breeding both comformation and working ability for years. They just never really had a place to show it off.
I think you're right. That's the pattern. It's the only way that makes sense too. There's too much lost when you don't train your own dog. T was able to pull it off, but that's T.
Don't forget the competition is both trial and conformation,,,,just as the breed standard is. Don't come up short in the show palacings by not being prepared. I'm not sure a SG rated dog is a contender. I think it takes a V rated working line dog as there are quite a few around.
Even though the Universal competition is a relatively new addition, hopefully it's getting some press and interest, some breeders have been breeding both comformation and working ability for years. They just never really had a place to show it off.
by Mystere on 05 July 2011 - 17:07
T also put a lot of training on that dog, Fabian v Mittlewest. Others show folks have also handed a dog that had been "sent off" for titling, in an attempt at the Universal Sieger. But, while it is relatively easy to simply hand a dog over to a show handler for presentatio in a show, it is not that simple to just hand a titled show dog over to a handler for trials. People have tried it and it just didn't work. Heck, with rare exceptions, you can't just hand a working line dog over to someone else to handle in a trial, either. 
by Mystere on 05 July 2011 - 17:07
As with everything, there are exceptions. There are dogs that are so exceptionally well-trained, and of mid-level drive and power, that they are virtually "push-button" and anyone can walk out onto a trial field with them and score well.
SGs dogs have won the Universal Sieger title. When they are the only entry in competition for the title...
that's what happens. 
SGs dogs have won the Universal Sieger title. When they are the only entry in competition for the title...
that's what happens. by Sheesh on 05 July 2011 - 19:07
This is very informative. Thank you both for the useful info, and keep it coming please.
Theresa
by lonewulf on 06 July 2011 - 16:07
Much of what has been said by Nia (Mystere) is essentially very accurate.... There is very little to add except that for the Univ. Sieger drive is needed equally from the handler as from the dog....
My words for the aspiring young.... spend the time in the first 9-11 months playing and bonding with your dog... the play is goal oriented and structured not unstructured freebies scattered all over the house.
Focus on developing a strong working relationship with an ethical trainer who has walked the entire distance.... you will need him more than you can ever anticipate.
Make sure you have the 100% support of your family.... this pursuit can destroy marriages if all are not on board.
Above all make sure that you always put your dog first in whatever you ask from him/her. Remember no dog gets up in the morning wanting all this... they do it only because they love you and want to please you... always.... always remember that!
Ravi Iyer & Juneau vom haus Tyson (June 13th 2004 -to- July 4th, 2011)
My words for the aspiring young.... spend the time in the first 9-11 months playing and bonding with your dog... the play is goal oriented and structured not unstructured freebies scattered all over the house.
Focus on developing a strong working relationship with an ethical trainer who has walked the entire distance.... you will need him more than you can ever anticipate.
Make sure you have the 100% support of your family.... this pursuit can destroy marriages if all are not on board.
Above all make sure that you always put your dog first in whatever you ask from him/her. Remember no dog gets up in the morning wanting all this... they do it only because they love you and want to please you... always.... always remember that!
Ravi Iyer & Juneau vom haus Tyson (June 13th 2004 -to- July 4th, 2011)
by lonewulf on 06 July 2011 - 17:07
As some of you may have already surmised... Juneau vom haus Tyson is no more.... he passed away at 2 am on July 4th, 2011 due to catastrophic bleeding from stomach ulceration that was caused by a mast cell tumor that he had for the past 1 year and that had not been recognized by stupid me who thought it was a sebaceous cyst. The end was very sudden and very quick. He was active and working and playing right upto the Sunday morning when he suddenly collapsed.
I know this is a thread on the making of a Universal Sieger..... so I shall not burden all of you with this too much.... but the following video tribute to him will afford everyone a glimpse of what it takes when you want to pursue the goal of a Universal Sieger. The video was actually put together by my son as show & tell for a school project in 2009 Fall.... and hence it refers to him as SchH3 x 7... he actually earned that title 2 more times after that.... not that it actually matters much.... Little did I suspect that this video would become a prophetic epitaph of his life so soon....
Finally I wish to salute the handlers and dogs who like me have shared the dream of the pursuit of the Universal Sieger in the recent past and are responsible for creating the stage for the next generation to be similarly inspired....
Karen & Ule; Erin & Zambo; Kevin & Vandal..... my salutations to all of you....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqLUkyDht8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5rURWsA0_8
In conclusion the following words from the Sufi poet Rumi captures the thoughts of Juneau and myself at this moment:
Wishing everyone the best in their pursuits.
Ravi Iyer & Juneau vom haus Tyson (June 13th, 2004 -to- July 4th, 2011)
I know this is a thread on the making of a Universal Sieger..... so I shall not burden all of you with this too much.... but the following video tribute to him will afford everyone a glimpse of what it takes when you want to pursue the goal of a Universal Sieger. The video was actually put together by my son as show & tell for a school project in 2009 Fall.... and hence it refers to him as SchH3 x 7... he actually earned that title 2 more times after that.... not that it actually matters much.... Little did I suspect that this video would become a prophetic epitaph of his life so soon....
Finally I wish to salute the handlers and dogs who like me have shared the dream of the pursuit of the Universal Sieger in the recent past and are responsible for creating the stage for the next generation to be similarly inspired....
Karen & Ule; Erin & Zambo; Kevin & Vandal..... my salutations to all of you....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqLUkyDht8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5rURWsA0_8
In conclusion the following words from the Sufi poet Rumi captures the thoughts of Juneau and myself at this moment:
Wishing everyone the best in their pursuits.
Ravi Iyer & Juneau vom haus Tyson (June 13th, 2004 -to- July 4th, 2011)
by Psycht on 06 July 2011 - 17:07
My condolences Ravi to you and your family. That video was a wonderful tribute to a special dog.
by Sheesh on 06 July 2011 - 17:07
Ravi,
Thank you for sharing your invaluable insight. You and Juneau achieved such a remarkable goal, one that most can only dream of. What an incredible journey. My thought go out to you.
Theresa
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