Questions & answers about GSD structure/ conformation - Page 6

 While re-reading older threads about front angulation I found this post by Shezam1 which provides an easy way to recognize good front angulation by looking closely at the neck, it also explains one cause for a flat withers, hope Shezam1 does not mind me reposting this:

Without going into the technicalities of shoulder blades (scapulas) and upper arms (humerus) and their relative lengths and angles, the easiest way to determine if the front assembly of a GSD is good is by looking at the appearance of the neck of the dog. If the neck of the dog appears long, then the scapula is well laid back and the upper arm would probably be of proper length and angle. A scapula that is not well laid back but is upright, means that the top curve of the scapula will be closer to the dog's head and the neck will appear short. This results in what is known as "flat withers".

It is often not realised that the front assembly of a GSD is more difficult to improve through breeding than the rear angulation and hence it is more important that it be as close to ideal as possible, since it plays a greater part in how efficiently or effortlessly a GSD moves, no matter how well proportioned the rear is.

The depth of the chest determines the lung capacity and should be close to the elbow joint of the front leg (may appear lower because of the hair) and the length from the withers to the bottom of the chest should be the same as the distance between the bottom of the chest to the ground, when looked at from the side, in an ideal GSD. The shape of the chest or rib cage (barrel shaped or narrow) as seem from the front determines whether there is interference with the elbows and hence the parallel movement of the front legs. A good front assembly will also result in a chest that appears to protrude as seen from the side due to the way the shoulder blade and upper arm are put together.

 Here is some explanation about front angulation by BlackthornGSD:
To go back to the original topic, Shtal's dog has moderate length of upper arm and the angle of the shoulder is a bit open or "straight"--so it's not ideal, but nor is it a terrible shoulder.

Here's one of my dogs as a youngster--working lines, Belgian and West German:



You can see that his upper arm (from elbow to point of shoulder) is short, making his shoulder angle more open than is ideal, causing him to have a "straight" shoulder. One way of seeing this is that his front legs are not out in front of his body, but they are still in front of his withers--not directly underneath them. Sometimes in pictures you see a dog who is deliberately pushed forward in a stack or leaning strongly forward, this will often improve the *look* of the dog's shoulder by putting his withers over his legs, even if the shoulder angle is not good--that's one reason why judging a dog based on a picture is not always going to be an accurate assessment of the dog.

The American show lines almost always have good length of upper arm--this is what gives such good forereach. But they do not always have great angulation. If the length of upper arm is good but the angle is too open (as in the case of the AKC champion that Rik posted), you end up with a dog with higher-seeming withers and good forereach, but the foreward leg will be high in the air on full extension. You see this in the European lines, too, but not as often.

The European working bloodlines consistently have short upper arms and short croups. I think that selecting for a great-performing schutzhund dog also inadvertently selects for these comformation features. They tend to be more of a sprinter body type, with quick twitch muscling for fast reactions and the ability to reach high speeds quickly. (Think Quarter Horse body type.) Almost universally, the best-looking and top-performing working-line dogs still have somewhat short upper arms and short croups. So, when selecting for the BEST comformation for schutzhund, you are at least to some degree, selecting against the GSD Standard, which calls for ground-eating movement, and longer muscling than is ideal for the quick-twitch sport of schutzhund.

Christine

 Continue by BlackthornGSD:

In the case of the dogs you just posted, they are all VA dogs and thus SHOULD have correct shoulder angulation, with the legs under the withers. In the case of the previous two pictures, the dogs do seem to have quite nice shoulder angulation, the second being somewhat better than the first.

In the case of my dog, you see that the angle from shoulders to withers is fairly correct. But his upper arm is short (the bone between elbow and point of shoulder, the humerus), so his legs are not underneath him. This is geometry, pure and simple.

Other shoulder faults are having the scapula be too upright, the scapula short and the upper arm short, or correct length of scapula and humerus, but still having an open angle.

Here's a diagram of the canine skeleton:






A







Also, some writers on GSDs say that the 90 degree angle in the standard is inaccurate and it should be closer to 95 degrees.

(An excellent article about GSD structure is http://www.gsaireland.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=9&cntnt01origid=68
Also read www.workingdogs.com/lshaw1.htm)


Christine

 If any member objects me reposting one or more of his/her old posts I will remove them with due apology.

Ibrahim

 Also by Shezam1:

A full discussion of the forequarters of a GSD would be rather long and complex and hard to do without video clips. However, a few points or tips would probably benefit some of those following this thread.

Structurally, the bones that need to be looked at are the scapula and the humerus, their relative positions and lengths. As mentioned earlier, the best way to judge the ‘lay back’ of the scapula is by looking at the appearance of the neck. The upper visible portion of a well laid back scapula is further back from the head (near the 2nd or 3rd thoracic vertebra) making the neck to appear long.

Next are the relative angles of the shoulder (scapula) and the upperarm (humerus) and its length. To be correct, both should appear equal in length and the angle at the point of attachment should be about 90 degrees, in a standing dog. The best way to judge this is by looking at the placement of the front leg. In a dog with a well laid back scapula, if the front leg is directly below the withers, then the length and angle of the upperarm will probably be as desired. A front leg that is ahead of the withers would be the result of an upright / short upperarm.

All this is largely to analyze if the standing dog will move well at a trot. But there are dogs that may not be structurally ideal and yet move well (Rik’s dog in the picture, seems to be one) because a lot depends on the muscles that attach the scapula to the torso. Some dogs that are very flexible can and do move well notwithstanding other issues.

Also, too much front reach can have an adverse effect too. This is because, in an ideal dog, the front feet should be close to the ground at full stretch and should touch the ground gently to save energy. Over extension will not cause this to happen as the foot will decelerate before touching down with a thump and result in loss of energy. The ideal can best be judged by looking at the trotting dog from the side and seeing that the front feet stretch only as far as in line with the dog’s nose, no less, no more.

Movement however is dependent on how the entire dog is put together and so depends on both the front and rear quarters, besides other things. Movement can best be observed by the human eye, not by looking directly at a moving dog, but through the periphery of your eyes by looking slightly beyond the dog . This helps greatly in analyzing movement.

S

 I found this by Rik, (to the point in few words.. Ibrahim):

The "ideal" angle of the GSD shoulder (where the upper arm meets the shoulder blade) is a right angle.

Lay back refers to the shoulder blade. Good lay back would be saying that the shoulder blade "angles" back from the sternum at the correct angle to contribute to a good "shoulder" angle.

"needs more lay back" is just a way of saying that the shoulder blade is placed more in an upright position and needs to be placed further back. If you see a dog and think "What a short neck" it is most often caused by the blade being too upright and needing more "lay back".

HTH,

Rik

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