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by hexe on 01 October 2010 - 21:10
Molly, the motherline is purportedly known, according to the 'pedigree' posted on this site for the brindled dog. It's the paternal side of the pedigree that is completely lacking in information--doesn't even show the alleged sire's name and registration number, let alone the dogs behind him.
So IMO, until a full pedigree is shown for this brindle dog 'Copper', he's nothing more than an interestingly-marked mixed breed dog being used to pump out novelty puppies that are being passed off as purebred German Shepherd Dogs with provisional AKC registrations. That the AKC is permitting this is absolutely NO assurance that this dog is indeed a purebred GSD--it simply means that an AKC number for a registered GSD male was written in on the application for registration paperwork for the litter containing Copper, along with the AKC number for a registered GSD bitch. Doesn't mean that the pups were actually sired by that AKC registered male. The only certainty at present is that the bitch that's named as the dam is, in fact, the mother of Copper and any of his littermates, since mitochondrial DNA would bear that out.
Which is why, I suspect, the owner of the dog has not supplied a name and registration number for the dog that allegedly sired 'Copper'.
So IMO, until a full pedigree is shown for this brindle dog 'Copper', he's nothing more than an interestingly-marked mixed breed dog being used to pump out novelty puppies that are being passed off as purebred German Shepherd Dogs with provisional AKC registrations. That the AKC is permitting this is absolutely NO assurance that this dog is indeed a purebred GSD--it simply means that an AKC number for a registered GSD male was written in on the application for registration paperwork for the litter containing Copper, along with the AKC number for a registered GSD bitch. Doesn't mean that the pups were actually sired by that AKC registered male. The only certainty at present is that the bitch that's named as the dam is, in fact, the mother of Copper and any of his littermates, since mitochondrial DNA would bear that out.
Which is why, I suspect, the owner of the dog has not supplied a name and registration number for the dog that allegedly sired 'Copper'.
by CrysBuck25 on 01 October 2010 - 21:10
First of all, if the dog is provisional DNA certified by AKC, then wouldn't it stand to reason that AKC has records of more than just sire and dam? My registered GSD Prince had pedigree that could be traced back as far as registries go. So just because no one has ever bothered to put the rest of this dog's pedigree in on this database doesn't necessarily mean that AKC does not have it...
I should note, however, that AKC only has records of what they are told. There is no way to prove that the dogs registered as sire and dam of a given litter are in fact sire and dam. DNA is changing that, but...
Anyway, don't know about the purity of the dogs. I have seen this site before, and it is not one that gets my attention, nor do any of the dogs on it. Seems like what's being bred for here is novelty colors and patterns. More power to them, I guess, but it is only dragging the breed down.
Crys
I should note, however, that AKC only has records of what they are told. There is no way to prove that the dogs registered as sire and dam of a given litter are in fact sire and dam. DNA is changing that, but...
Anyway, don't know about the purity of the dogs. I have seen this site before, and it is not one that gets my attention, nor do any of the dogs on it. Seems like what's being bred for here is novelty colors and patterns. More power to them, I guess, but it is only dragging the breed down.
Crys
by yellowrose of Texas on 01 October 2010 - 21:10
Cyrs: That is what a provisional Certificate is....cannot be traced past first or second etc generation with no proven other parentage...and dna missing....
YR
DNA doesn't prove what breed it is...it just proves the parents are or are not..
but if they do not line up behind then when pups are done it will say Sorry but a and b are not the parents..because the lineage behind is not matched to the parents claimed...Dna works in humans only a certain percentage...but not always right...
Dogs is the same...I know for fact of three case where the parents were for certain the parents,,,but the third generatio could have been lied about or even the second and the dna will kick it back . AKC will take your money and say that the parents are...but after that is anyones guess until it is dna all around and most gr. gr. parentages are dead. by the time the problem crops up.
In the case above it is a give away.
YR
YR
DNA doesn't prove what breed it is...it just proves the parents are or are not..
but if they do not line up behind then when pups are done it will say Sorry but a and b are not the parents..because the lineage behind is not matched to the parents claimed...Dna works in humans only a certain percentage...but not always right...
Dogs is the same...I know for fact of three case where the parents were for certain the parents,,,but the third generatio could have been lied about or even the second and the dna will kick it back . AKC will take your money and say that the parents are...but after that is anyones guess until it is dna all around and most gr. gr. parentages are dead. by the time the problem crops up.
In the case above it is a give away.
YR
by CrysBuck25 on 01 October 2010 - 22:10
So what provisional means is that I can go take two dogs I claim are purebreds and get provisional registrations proving they are purebreds? And then after a few years of breeding them and their progeny, and DNA tests proving these are the dogs who have produced the offspring, they will be able to get full AKC registration?
Awesome! I simply must go get myself some mutts, so I can work magic on them and turn them into purebreds!
This really isn't any surprise. Just another Cracker Jack box prize.
Crys
Awesome! I simply must go get myself some mutts, so I can work magic on them and turn them into purebreds!
This really isn't any surprise. Just another Cracker Jack box prize.
Crys
by yellowrose of Texas on 02 October 2010 - 02:10
Yes, Crys
Akc started several years ago , all you need is a picture and a vet to say it is a dog...of collie desent and they will give you a provisional AKC registration..YOu may not show or use the dog in events other than activities like Fly ball and the ones that only require the dogs registration.
There are other provisional akc papers given also..If you sell a dog to someone and they lose the papers or you put a check in the box for limited, the person can claim you never gave the papers to them and in a month or so you may contest the registration, but you better answer all letters you receive and have a copy of the limited reg app you gave the customer or they will issue that person an AKC registration...
Upon their say so and the dogs pictures saying you sold them the dog...how about those apples.
One such person tried it but I was very much the paper person and I make copies of every stinking paper , apps and the contract everyone signs before the dog or pup leaves my property..They can erase , check other boxes or claim they lost any thing, but I have proof of the originals so that won't fly here... I had one try it...AKC sent me a letter but also sent him one..he paraded it to my front gate with a check mark in the regular registration box and I laughed in his face. He said AKC sent it to him with the backwards check mark in the box..I tore it up in his face...I had the same thing from AKC and got them on phone...I sent them legal contracts and paperwork and he got what he was suppose to...A limited dog registration with my kennel Name in place first on the registration...YOu may not change any name of a dog that you sign a contract on that states the kennel name many not be removed.
So much for AKC...they only make money..their first and only priority.
YR
Akc started several years ago , all you need is a picture and a vet to say it is a dog...of collie desent and they will give you a provisional AKC registration..YOu may not show or use the dog in events other than activities like Fly ball and the ones that only require the dogs registration.
There are other provisional akc papers given also..If you sell a dog to someone and they lose the papers or you put a check in the box for limited, the person can claim you never gave the papers to them and in a month or so you may contest the registration, but you better answer all letters you receive and have a copy of the limited reg app you gave the customer or they will issue that person an AKC registration...
Upon their say so and the dogs pictures saying you sold them the dog...how about those apples.
One such person tried it but I was very much the paper person and I make copies of every stinking paper , apps and the contract everyone signs before the dog or pup leaves my property..They can erase , check other boxes or claim they lost any thing, but I have proof of the originals so that won't fly here... I had one try it...AKC sent me a letter but also sent him one..he paraded it to my front gate with a check mark in the regular registration box and I laughed in his face. He said AKC sent it to him with the backwards check mark in the box..I tore it up in his face...I had the same thing from AKC and got them on phone...I sent them legal contracts and paperwork and he got what he was suppose to...A limited dog registration with my kennel Name in place first on the registration...YOu may not change any name of a dog that you sign a contract on that states the kennel name many not be removed.
So much for AKC...they only make money..their first and only priority.
YR
by hexe on 02 October 2010 - 02:10
"So what provisional means is that I can go take two dogs I claim are purebreds and get provisional registrations proving they are purebreds? "
Not exactly, CrysBuck. What appears to have taken place in this instance is that a particular dog was represented as being the offspring of registered German Shepherd Dog parents, but the AKC had reason to question the veracity of this--maybe it was the appearance in the litter of coat markings which had not been documented in the breed (either in the US or internationally) for at least 60 years, or maybe there were issues with foreign registration documentation (if both the alleged sire and dam were imports). Whatever the cause for the AKC's question about the true genetics of this dog, it seems the consequence was that the AKC would only issue a Conditional (that's actually what it's called, not provisional) registration for this particular dog, and would continue such a restriction on the offspring of this dog for at least three generations. Remember that a single litter CAN contain puppies from more than one sire--so it's entirely possible that the dam of this dog WAS bred to a legitimate, purebred, registered GSD intentionally, but was also impregnated (either purposely or accidently) by something that would produce the brindle markings, and at least one pup in the litter--Copper--was sired by the brindle-producing non-GSD.
The fact is, you can register *anything*--including an imaginary dog--as a purebred dog with the AKC, so long as you have active registration numbers for a sire and dam of the same breed that you can name as the parents, and you send the AKC the completed litter registration forms and a check for the correct amount. It's all a matter of how ethical you are, personally, and whether or not the registration numbers you use for the alleged sire and dam throw up any red flags or generate any complaint of fraud. And as long as no one contacts the AKC and requests that they investigate your breeding practices and recordkeeping because you've produced pups that do not appear to be what they are being represented to be, breed-wise, then you'll get away with it, too.
Not exactly, CrysBuck. What appears to have taken place in this instance is that a particular dog was represented as being the offspring of registered German Shepherd Dog parents, but the AKC had reason to question the veracity of this--maybe it was the appearance in the litter of coat markings which had not been documented in the breed (either in the US or internationally) for at least 60 years, or maybe there were issues with foreign registration documentation (if both the alleged sire and dam were imports). Whatever the cause for the AKC's question about the true genetics of this dog, it seems the consequence was that the AKC would only issue a Conditional (that's actually what it's called, not provisional) registration for this particular dog, and would continue such a restriction on the offspring of this dog for at least three generations. Remember that a single litter CAN contain puppies from more than one sire--so it's entirely possible that the dam of this dog WAS bred to a legitimate, purebred, registered GSD intentionally, but was also impregnated (either purposely or accidently) by something that would produce the brindle markings, and at least one pup in the litter--Copper--was sired by the brindle-producing non-GSD.
The fact is, you can register *anything*--including an imaginary dog--as a purebred dog with the AKC, so long as you have active registration numbers for a sire and dam of the same breed that you can name as the parents, and you send the AKC the completed litter registration forms and a check for the correct amount. It's all a matter of how ethical you are, personally, and whether or not the registration numbers you use for the alleged sire and dam throw up any red flags or generate any complaint of fraud. And as long as no one contacts the AKC and requests that they investigate your breeding practices and recordkeeping because you've produced pups that do not appear to be what they are being represented to be, breed-wise, then you'll get away with it, too.
by sueincc on 02 October 2010 - 02:10
Thanks Jenni, Fonske of KNPV fame: Love this video of him:
http://www.fonskeshome.nl/new/index.php?page=filmpje
As far as I'm concerned, pretty is as pretty does, which means this true monster is gorgeous.
http://www.fonskeshome.nl/new/index.php?page=filmpje
As far as I'm concerned, pretty is as pretty does, which means this true monster is gorgeous.
by yellowrose of Texas on 02 October 2010 - 02:10
Hexe is correct. When it gets caught is when someone buys one pup and then decides to breed and they have to dna and whallah this one pup doesnt match the dna and akc has to start asking you for the proof of the sire and dam that made this dog...that is when the unethical get caught..] Usually it is the pups of the breeding done that show up the lie.
Akc charges you for the kit, YOu dna and they give you one result. The parents must be correct at this point. It is when the pups are then dna 'd that things begin to show up ...Being a Conditional registration was given I do not see how it got as far as it has??? like someone said Weird!!
YR
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Akc charges you for the kit, YOu dna and they give you one result. The parents must be correct at this point. It is when the pups are then dna 'd that things begin to show up ...Being a Conditional registration was given I do not see how it got as far as it has??? like someone said Weird!!
YR
by EKvonEarnhardt on 02 October 2010 - 12:10
It is funny how Brindle coloring is now just showing its head after how many, decades. Sorry but I don't believe it. Seen too many crosses that have "looked" like Pure shepherds to only find out they are mixes.
I understand that the father's side is missing and some dogs are "pasted away" BUT you can not tell me all the aunts and uncles are too from that line. Why is it not being tested? With all the DNA that is done there should be no problem proving this. UNLESS and there was talk of this on this board that "Some" people wanted to add new blood to the lines for health and drive. IN America it would not be that way but a "NEW RARE " color that can be $$$$$$$$$.
EK
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