Mark Saccoccio or Dean Calderon who's a better trainer? - Page 6

Ouch! Low blow

Gayle Kirkwood said:

"Personally, I feel that one-time training seminars (from anyone) often bring out the performer in the trainer--the quick "Wow" factor that our instant gratification society seems to prize".

I think this is a very good point that can not be overstated.  Too often people go to weekend seminars and expect to be wowed or the trainers who are giving the seminars feel they have to find an instant solution to problems that in all likelihood took a long time to develop in the first place.  Another issue is I might not be able to duplicate whatever I was told, though I might think I can,  or I might not be able to explain it to my helper correctly, either way not fixing the problem and possibly even making it worse in the long run.   I think going to seminars is great, and you can learn a lot, especially when watching how others train, but rarely do I take my dog unless it's a seminar being given by someone I either know or I have been referred to go by someone I trust.

While I may lack the credientials of Mark or Dean, I credit my own 3 male dogs for teaching me more than I may have learned from any of the demi-god trainers.

(1)The most important lesson involves outting the dog from the sleeve. Lex taught me some valuable lessons here. I learned not to let the dog run with the slipped sleeve to the car because this created avoidance and conflict. I didn't hang the dog to get him to out the slipped sleeve on the field. Finally, I asked the helper never to slip the sleeve as this was not a part of the trial routine. Lex taught me not to ask him to out until his feet were on the ground. In club training, we had beat-up sleeves with ragged covers--making it nearly impossible to disengage his long teeth when asked to out. So, I went out and purchased the Belgian arm, the hardest trial sleeve I could find, and a brand-new Gappay sleeve cover which were used by all the trial dogs in our club.  When the helper locked up, I forced myself to count to "one- thousand-one, one thousand-two, one thousand-three" before giving the out command. When I first trialed Lex under Al Kerr, Al commented that he understood why I waited so long before asking Lex to out when the helper locked up. When I went to my second seminar with Dean, I left Lex in his crate and worked with an "air dog" rather than risk soccer ball kicks.
(2) Zeek was a very precocious dog. He completed his BH at the age of 13 months with no on-leash training--only the use of a clicker and food. Zeek was running the blinds at the tender age of 7 months. The club helper expected Zeek to do an inducive out before he was developmentally ready to do so and began screaming and hitting Zeek over the head with a baseball cap in an attempt to compel Zeek to release the sleeve. This created conflict and munchiness on the sleeve that took several years to extinguish. By the time Zeek was sent to Germany for his initial training/titling, I had trained him to be an excellent tracker and to jump and retrieve.
(3) Now, Nimo was my baby Ursus son with his very own agenda. We never made any mistakes in his training. He was never asked to out the sleeve or the tug in his puppy protection training. I provided my own puppy tug and sleeve for Nimo's protection work. He would run to the van from the field with his prey held firmly in his mouth but would not trade for food or a toy. Outside the van, he stood his ground stubbornly until he had to come up and gasp for air before leaping into his crate and dropping his prize. I sent him to Heidi Theis for training/titling at the age of 18 months--at which time, he had never been asked to out the sleeve. In his early training, Heidi had her husband doing helper work. One day, she suddenly yelled,"Jeff, freeze!" Because he was developmentally ready to do so, Nimo outted on the sleeve on the man inducively. Because of his early training and lack of conflict created during training, He finishd his titles (BH to SchH3/IPO3 in 7.5 months). Nimo always remained a remarkably clear-headed dog in his protection work. He was a piece of cake for me to train and handle for his breed survey for life. One of my proudest days was handling Nimo in protection at the 2005 USA Sieger Show in Carson City. As we walked off the field and Scheld smiled and gave me a thumbs up, I could hear a spectator comment, "Now, that was a one clear-headed dog!' He had one of the best performance tests of the day.  Gayle was there--she may recall.

The moral of my story is learn to read your dog and not to rely on the guidance of a demi-god who has never seen the dog before and is unlikely to see him again!

So, the real moral of the story is next time you have a dog you need some help with, forget about seminars and demi-God trainers... just ask Louise.

ask your problem-solving, thinking dog how he perceives things. If he has bonded well with you and repects you as his pack leader (without compulsion), he will tell you every time.

Uh oh.
My problem-solving thinking dogs are laughing.
No, dogs don't laugh. They don't think either.
I give up.

 after the foundation work was already done... by Jim Coover? Egads! Give the DOG TSB for having survived his foundation work and all those trainers, and add a few points for resilience.

You got that one right , Shelley--you're remarkable! Otherwise, I've done all the foundation work before sending my dogs to any trainers.  Fortunately, Heidi valued and sought my opinion and called and emailed me on a regular basis. With most trainers, it's my way or the highway.

 ...and WTF is an "air dog?"
Dummy, you go through all the exercises and give all the commands with no dog on the leash. Warning for you, Shelley, you have to be able to walk down the center field sober and in a straight line.

What have you done since then Louise? Besides put down better trainers than you could ever have hoped to have been? 

I've trained and handled Nimo in several Sieger Shows and for his breed survey for life. I retrained Zeek and Nimo privately for over a year with Jim Dobbs (to work with complete obedience and drive-containment for me--Jim remains best best trainer I've ever worked with.  The retraining involved table-training of the hold (first a soft leather glove, next a tug, finally, a dumbbell) and the retrieve and carry/delivery. When Jim was applying the ear pinch to Nimo, he remarked,"This dog woulld bite me if he could because he possesses genuine aggression which has been bred out of many dogs generations ago."

Nimo and Zeek have also volunteered their services at numerous helper seminar/certification events.

repeat the 3 after Heidi put the first on on.

Wrong again, stupid--Heidi never touched Lex. Can't you read? I trained/titled him to his SchH3 entirely by myself in a matter of a few months after his SchH2 (with very nice scores). The members of the club could not understand the operant conditioning I used in reprogramming Lex. He was the first dog in the club to be titled to SchH2 and 3 by his owner.  I trained him my way without compulsion.They laughed and ridiculed me for proofing Lex by sending him on the voraus from the  wrong end of the field. I wanted to make sure Lex understood the meaning of the words--not just my body language or following a pattern of training. At home, I trained him for the sit, down, and stand in the kitchen with my back facing him and no body language to read. I learned a lot of these tips from Ivan Balanov. I rewarded Lex during this non-conventional proofing with clicker training and food--my idea--not Ivan's.

Shelley, dream on-- you could not possibly have successfully trained and titled Lex as I did--without having your ass bitten.


Frankly, I don't care if I never compete on another trial field. With the next generation training dog (hopefully a Nimo son), I will do the foundation training if I can find a decent club within driving distance.  I doubt that I will ever be able to justify the expense of sending a dog away for training/titling. However, there are a few non-greedy, competent trainers that will title a good dog to SchH1 for as little as $3000. With adequate preparation , there is no reason that I can't do the breed survey and the other titles by myself.

They are both experienced handlers and trainers,  why would one what to debate  who is better?  What I have seen are that  the dogs they work with are happy, not stressed, and a team was formed for competition.  So I do not see any point in discussing who is a better trainer anymore :)
Always,
Cee