Cookie training vs Correction training... - Page 6

 I gave some examples above: bad timing, bad training, unfair corrections, constant jerks even when the dog is in position, etc.  Gosh, there are some "big name" trainers around here that have beaten and/or hung (non aggressive) dogs during training, not sure if that fits your definition or not.

 If you happen to live in that Happy Land where NO unfair corrections, NO unfair shocks, NO "whipping up" ever happens, then you won't be able to answer, as you see NO unfair training and no resulting stress.

So, so many people "live" in that Happy Land! Oh, how I wish I did!     : )  

Let me try again:

Dianne I think there is a world of difference between abuse and fair correction training.  Quite frankly you sometimes come off like some kind of AR zealot, the way you always use inflammatory language in your rants on this subject.  You don't know everything and you don't know every dog.  Just because you prefer to use 100% motivational methods does not mean everyone else is wrong or cruel to their dogs.   You are out of line and way off base if you think you can categorize all trainers who use corrections as cruel.  With you it's all one way and no other way.  So you and I will have to agree to disagree on this issue and leave it at that.  If this is not how you intend to come across, I'm sorry, but I am not the only person who feels you come across as if you have it in for everyone who uses methods different from yours.  Again, you are not the only person who knows how to train dogs. 

Ruger make up your own mind, don't waste too much time or put too much stock on endless Internet blather (mine, or anyone else's).  Don't let anyone brain wash you.  Go watch and learn, then ask questions.  I think you are a smart person and can figure out what is right for your own dog.

Have fun, I know my dog and I always do!

Using purely positive methods and shaping are very strong tools.  When a puppy is raised this way they learn how to figure things out and use their brains.  Dogs trained this way that I have seen have incredible focus and willingness to please their handler. There are alot of good book out there describing this training method.  My next puppy due to arrive in Sept will be trained this way.  Corrections done poorly can't be taken back and let's face it we all make mistakes.  JMHO and my new way of thinking.  I worked with a top level schutzhund trainer this past summer and I still feel guilty I put my dog through that harshness, it really wasn't necessary.  He is a national level competitor and has been doing this a long time, but it wasn't for me.
Lyn

Thanks for the comment Lyn,  you are touching on something I feel strongly about: make sure the trainer you decide on is in balance with how YOU want to interact with your dog.

Sueincc, I do apologize if I come across as "all trainers who don't use positive are cruel".  That is not my intent.  For many years I used compulsion, and I was not a "cruel" person.  Too be honest, I was not as good a trainer as I am now, but my intention was never to be cruel. I have friends (good friends) who are not positive trainers.  Yes, their dogs are far more stressed when being trained than mine, but I don't consider them "cruel" people.  Some are very talented.

As tired as you are of me seeing to be "holier than thou", I am AS tired of compulsion trainers acting defensive everytime a positive trainer discusses training. You see this in people who can't even stand to have a shock called a shock, or a jerk called a jerk... it has to have some other, "softer" name, or the person claims you are being inflammatory. A jerk on a leash is a jerk on a leash! Who hasn't done it?  Own it!  If that is how you train, why does it cause such defensiveness?

I read post after post saying "prey can only take a dog so far" in protection and obedience, and I don't rant and rave that these people are "putting down" prey training.  I may point out that they are incorrect for some dogs and trainers, but that is THERE opinion, and illustrates their understanding of prey, and training, and dog behavior, and is no cause for me to get angry. It is THEIR opinion.  I may think they are wrong, but that doesn't make them "my enemy" or "poo poo heads"!

So, let's agree to disagree on (I'm not sure what) and please accept my apology if you have taken offense at what I have said concerning complulsion trainers is you feel that it misrepresents you and your dog's behavior in any way.  I would like to continue to have intelligent discussions here about training, without people getting hurt feelings.  Like I said,  "own how you train".
 
Let me rephrase the question above so as to make it easier to understand where I am going with it:

Do you (any of you) think there is a place within the sport of dog training for a discussion on public perception?

It's good to have Diane's thoughts, but she said it all when she said she is not a behavioral or pet trainer.  She trains the performance-bred dogs of her own lines, in drive, for a sport, lends a different perspective.

I have seen the bad training she speaks of, makes you wince.  But I have seen all-positive trained dogs yawn and lip-lick when they are not sure what's coming next or a mild social stress, it was the temperament of the dog.  Then there are signs of stress from fear or from confusion.

Mudwick, it doesn't take your dog long to teach a behavior in drive, I said it takes a longer time to capture behaviors, and longer on loose leash walking.   I have had professional R+ trainers ask me how they can get a better heel for their dog, these are trainers who work on it for a long time but their dogs are still pulling too frequently. They did "like a tree," they tried "silky leash", and they tried "Red light/green light," used Premack principle, wait until dog is loose before going to the tree to sniff/pee, for them-- IT WAS NOT EFFECTIVE ENOUGH.  Sure, they can wash the dog out for a dog that's easier & more responsive to all-positive training- they didn't want to.  They had been brainwashed by zealots who believed things like correction is cruel, there is some new "enlightened" way, drink our kool aid.  These were the people who tell EVERYONE HOW GREAT THEIR DOG IS, how perfect he is off-leash, then you NEVER SEE THEM OUT WITH THEIR DOG except on the field or in the ring, because it does not behave reliably out of pattern, or is dog-aggressive, and they don't want to be embarassed when their dog disobeys their cues, runs off distracted, or jumps on someone- and they have no recourse.

Maybe the bad connotations have been rightly earned by other harsh trainers, but they don't apply to me, because I'm not necessarily training the same way. We are all speaking in generalizations, when in reality it's not about using corrections or not, it's about how well the method is designed to work with the canine mind, and what is effective and what is not, and biggest of all- how it is applied for the individual dog.

I am not a weekend or SchH trainer, I am a full-time professional dog trainer and behavior specialist-- I don't make my money and run a sucessful business off training SchH dogs I train PETS (and some working dogs and sport dogs), so what one person can do with a well-bred dog performing in the sport designed FOR said dog, is an accomplishment, but does not cause me to automatically believe they are a dog trainer or have a clue. Takes more than that. Majority of dogs are not high-drive performance-bred, they come with issues and so do the owners, that is a lot more challenging and shows you more how a dogs mind works because you see the whole spectrum. I am sure some SchH trainers are good, and some are bad, I have a client whose dog was brutalized by a SchH trainer who could not fix behavior problems, obviously the trainer can teach a well-bred dog behaviors in drive, but they could not help a dog with some real issues, the dog was called a wash-out P.O.S.   She's fine.  A good rule of thumb:  If the owner is crying during the dog training lesson, it's probably not a proper method :-)

It only takes a long time to capture behaviors with an 8 week old puppy.
Very shortly after the dog comes home, the lightbulb goes on, and it learns how to offer behaviors.

Defensive about "shock" and "jerk"..... Kinda like PP trainers are defensive of "bribe" and "lure" and "cookie trainer"????

Hey, I often use pinch collars, and I call them pinch collars because they pinch :-)

I volunteered for an animal rescue as a trainer donating my time to different dogs to increase the likelihood they'd be adopted.

I was asked to leave because my "methods were too abusive".  Because I advocated putting a prong collar on a Rott mix who catagorically refused to heel anywhere outside of the livingroom.

I tried, I give up.  Rest assured you cannot  hurt my feelings, and not only do I own my training methods, I am damn proud of them.   I am reminded of your offensive questions on Vickie's thread - believe me you didn't hurt her feelings either.  You train how you want, I really don't care what you do.  As for public opinion, I have trained my dog in public, explained what I am doing to those who were curious, and no one has ever objected , though I do get a lot of compliments. 

It's unfortunate that people such as yourself bad mouth training methods you so clearly don't understand and have never used properly.  You are as bad as those who refuse to acknowledge motivational methods work too.   You have on multiple occasions said you used ecollars as a short cut.  That would be an incorrect and unfair  usage of an ecollar.  You have on more than one occasion made reference to poorly timed corrections.   If you can't use a method correctly, then you are right, you have no business using it, but that has nothing to do with those of us who can use those methods fairly, correctly and humanely. 

Sue, I hope you don't mean me?