Breeding Untitled Female....???? - Page 6

 I love jenni with all my heart :)

Ok, I'll answer what you've written but then I really do have to go.

"Believe what you'd like but I was living there with my GSD long before you decided you wanted to be a breeder I'm inclined to trust my own eyes. Whether or not every group who is training together has formally declared themselves a club or are on someone's official list doesn't negate the fact that you see permanent training facilities everywhere."
Keith, no offense but I have no idea who you are just as you do not know me even though you make many assumptions.
I don't know your age or experience with the breed, I have had GSD's in my life for over 50 years. I put the first schutzhund title on my bitch when I was about 20 years old, I've personally titled a few others along the way. I've had about 17 litters in the past 17 years, I never lived in Germany but I visit Germany and other parts of Europe once or twice a year for the past 15 years. I do not present myself as an expert but I know more than most. I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you, I have neither the time or desire.

"Why would you imply that I don't train my dogs when you know absolutely nothing about me?"
"Because many of your dogs appear to have been imported already titled and by your own admission, you send them off for training."
Most of my current adult breeding stock have been imported titled but ALL of the puppies I have bred have had their foundation training done by me. "By my owned admission as you have stated" I have never sent my dogs out for training, only for finishing for their titles, they have had 90% of the work done on them before they left so please get your facts straight. At my age and with the time available to me I now send an older pup out for titling, the foundation training is put on by ME, I know what I have. I will also add that I have personally handled these already titled dogs that are in my home at the German Sieger Show and also trained with 2 of the 3 dogs in Europe that I imported already titled, a bit different then importing sight unseen wouldn’t you say?

"I'm assuming you mean Broward and you are fortunate to have a club like Miriam's and the benefit of her experience within such a realtively short drive. Not everyone has that luxury."
Once again your assuming is incorrect, I do not train at Broward, first off they do not have a helper, nor do I share your opinion that Miriam's experience has any benefit whatsoever on the level of, or quality of work that is being done there, so there is no relatively short drive or "luxury" as you put it whatsoever. But if you had actually been to Miriam's club to see their training regiment, or if you actually knew me and what I do and where I do it then maybe that would qualify you to make factual statements rather than off the cuff assumptions.

"I don't have to make excuses...in my more than 35 years in the breed, I have bred exactly one litter...5 puppies."
So I would imagine that you have very little experience to go on as it pertains to breeding in general, let alone if the female is titled or not. Being around it, or “in the breed” as you put it doesn't qualify you if you haven't done it.
But there I go making assumptions just like you have and we both know where that leads don’t we?

"On the contrary, Andrew, you are the one who came into this thread with the unyeilding stance that there was never any reason to breed an untitled dog. Your position is the one for which there is only black and white".
Sorry Keith, wrong again. I have stated my opinions, I have given

"On the contrary, Andrew, you are the one who came into this thread with the unyeilding stance that there was never any reason to breed an untitled dog. Your position is the one for which there is only black and white".
Sorry Keith, wrong again. I have stated my opinion, I have given the reasons for my opinion and I have responded to others opinions. What you anyone else does in your life is your business not mine, but at least respect the fact that I and others have the right to voice our opinions just as you do so please try to not get your nose out of joint.
Believe what you like, practice what you feel is correct and enjoy your life.
One suggestion, try to limit your commenting about people that you know absolutely nothing about, you make yourself look bad when you do so.
“In all fairness, I generally agree with you that the dogs should be titled but have also seen extraordinary measures taken simply to put a title on a dog to give her the illusion of breedworthiness when she really wasn't. Titles, by themselves are not the be-all and end all you suggest.”
I have not suggested that titles by themselves were the be all and end all, once again that’s Keith twisting peoples words. I have not suggested, I have stated that IMO untitled dogs should not be bred and I have very clearly outlined my reasons why, try going back and re-reading the posts so you may comment on what I have actually written, not what you have once again assumed.
Thanks buddy….have a great day!

"I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you, I have neither the time or desire."

Nor I you.

"So I would imagine that you have very little experience to go on as it pertains to breeding in general, let alone if the female is titled or not. Being around it, or “in the breed” as you put it doesn't qualify you if you haven't done it."

So that makes her ( http://www.raebark.info/ ) an expert?  She's had hundreds of litters!

So essentially, the only reason I should title my males is if I am going to offer them at stud?

I personally would not want to by a pup from a breeding that was more than 1 generation away from Schutzhund titled.  And that is if it was an exceptional dog.  I think that it does not take long to get off  mark in reguards to drive/temperment if the dogs are not titled.  Especially in America where some will breed anything.  

I believe that if you want to breed and the dog is shaky in any way get rid of the dog and start over or keep the dog.  But whatever you do do not breed it!! Titled or not titled some of the issue is people know the dog is not up to par but instead of taking the loss they breed because of all of the trouble, work , and money put into the dog.  The "point of no return mentality"

Lets be honest.  I do not think that even those who minimize the titleing of dogs would consider buying a pup if the dogs in that pedigree were not titled or their working capibilities documented in lets say the past 3 or 4 generations.  And how well will these dogs work?  What kind of people would buy these dogs?  Oh I know pet home owners. 

My point is that it may not effect working ability first generation but as future generations are born they will become useless as working dogs.  And to be clear the dog may not be schutzhund titled but possible dual purpose service dog.

  Everyone.....This has been very interesting reading. Thanks for the posts..........

                                                                                     Ruger1

.Many here have the very same mentality as has been taken by the American S/L breeders. I know what is best, I know my dogs, why should I have to proof them. Especially when I can get $300, $500, $1000+ for the pups. Nice little chunk of change..

And from a post above, if you are a breeder but not a competitor, then what do you consider yourself. You are a supplier to the pet market, make all the excuses you want to justify what you do, in the end, you're just cashing checks and doing it on the backs of the titled dogs behind your "superior" BY pets.

So F###ing what if some buy titles, so F###### what if some are only bred for prey or B/R color.That is only the excuse of people who have no regard for the GSD as a breed to do what they want.  

The system is in place to continue the GSD as a breed, what one does with it is up to the individual.

Rik