The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 6

When you take advice on breeding from anyone see what they themselves have achieved tip of the day.

Marlene

Another tip - do COI's on all your litters.

To answer how many foundation dogs were there you have to indicate starting point. But for purposes of today's situation in the west lines of show and work there are 4 foundation dogs, Quanto, Canto, Marko, Mutz. There is also the Bodo/Bernd Lierberg foundation. 98% of all showline dogs go back to Quanto/Canto predominantly!! Then their is the Mutz lines that is about completely erased out of showlines that is also a main line in working lines. See the correlation..as the Mutz influence decreased(he was not extreme enough or bright orange/red), the working capability has decreased. Mutz produced Black and Tan, medium type dogs with good to excellent working qualities. The working qualities were not as important as the typey look of today so slowly Mutz's influence has almost become negligible. The other difference between Quanto/Canto and Mutz is that Mutz didnot possess the L litter Wienerau in his pedigree. The working lines goback to many dogs, Marko, Mutz, Bernd, Enno, Frei,Arko,  and possess little or no L litter Wienerau.  I have Winsis-X , so COI is always looked at my me, but again its the "cuminative effect"!!!!. That's why many people won't introduce showlines to their stock, because the lines are SOOOOO saturated with the Quanto/Canto blood, that the weaknesses of this line will come in your stock disporportionately. But for showline people to not use workinglines when the more diverse working blood will still not have the impact of the concentrated show blood(and they deseparately need the improvements in mental state and drives) to me is insane and clearly shows a lack of wanting to improve the working capability. You see; a showline dog can produce individual dogs that can work, but they won't consistently provide good working stock because the genetics are too unbalanced and saturated with the weak L litter Wienerau. I know some people don't like to hear this but don't let the facts of today's split and its reasons get in the way of your opinion. 

Gustay, 

Excellent post you covvered it all I had a dog a few years back with Bernd  back in her  the pedigree he stayed in Europe and the litter mate  Bodo came to the states and one branched to show and the other to work. as later foundation studs,  I lost my  winis-X program they were on old VHS tapes instead of a disk as they are today .

Marlene . 

Uh... if there were only 4 foundation dogs then there can't be any such thing as an outcrossed GSD workingline or showline.  I thought I read somewhere there were around 125? No? The starting point would be from the first GSD registered with the SV or whatever the German registry was called in those days. When was the first GSD registered? Who was the first registered GSD and is that pedigree on this database? Not sure what you mean by the cummulative effect.

I was aware of Jantie's agenda some time ago, but I wasn't understanding his reason for including the Troll-Natz-Fado line because it was incongruent with all the other line's founders.  Why did he pick these 130?  Did he start with the founder, and follow the lines of succession?  Is there any reason a dog of several generations bygone shouldn't have 130 descendants?

"SIX times in the fiifth generation" is probably more prolific in actuality than it's supposed equivalent of a "3-4" linebreeding (for reasons not easily explained).  Also, the presence of prolific producers in such a way, leaves less optional lines to go to for breedings that are "free" of the particular founder.  Founder Effect (or Popular Sire Syndrome) enacts more profoundly in the overall population (and not in every way bad!), and while in some ways linked, should still not be equated to "linebreeding" anymore than outcrossing is to fitness.

I've never cared to actually study the showlines to find in detail how the mess occured.  If breeding healthy strong performers at some point fails to consistently produce healthy strong performers, wouldn't any decent breeder (that wasn't captivated by greed, politics, prestige and so on) discontinue that bloodline and rethink their present strategy?  Yeah, I realize it's a growing trend in the workinglines too.

The northern elephant seal grew from a bottlenecked population of 20-30 individuals to a recovery of over a 100,000 and does not suffer inbreeding depression, loss of fitness, blah blah, so why would it be so hard to find 100 real top-notch producers among 100,000 german shepherds?

Which Mutz are you talking about?  I am sorry for being ignorant, I am trying to learn!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Powerhaus, the reference as a breed pillar was likely to VA Mutz Pelztierfarm, one of the greatest GSDs ever, and had true working temperament.  He was sold to Italy and because he was owned by Dr. Rummel (pres of the SV) if I remeber correctly he did not obtain the Sieger title, but should have. He was proven to be a dominant producer of correct working temperament and some very hard and courageous GSDs. 

One of the predominant factors that has led the gsd into a downward snowball are is that the bitches are overlooked.Whether in show or work or any variables.Now...and even to the origination of the breed.It is far easier for a male to set the standards as they can breed..breed.Wheras a female was and still is now set to a course of so many litters in her lifetime.With open eyes you can look into history the gravitude in promoting the males over the females.Most females had limited titling and those that came to the US were simply used for  improving to somehow restructure those that had went for pure show.Many went to waste and were not allowed to prove themselves out in work.There are cornerstone male lines that people have fed upon.At any day you can open the stud books for the males both in gsd's and breeds of horses.Theres that word again.The foundational males as stated above are correct.There were four arabian stallions with the horses.I remember when Belguim would not export/sell to the US.It just seems that every breed whether horse or breed of dog has become waste here.Perhaps everywhere.There are dogs that compete for a title and couldn't do police work..real tracking...SAR...etc etc etc.I dont compete with my dogs or horses.The important thing to remember is this.It is what your dog will do in the coming days.People have their heads in the sand and there is going to be a real wake-up call.I wanted to utilize one of my dogs after Hurricane Ivan hit.I didnt have a FEMA pass.I care not to join in the political arenas of any sort.Would that dog have been worthy and not dirupt any limited dogs that Fema pocesses.YES.Instead of opening up stud books.I have a direct question to everyone on this thread.How many gsds do Fema pocess..or any other breed that are cross trained for cadaveur work..track work..bomb work etc.The last I heard here were less than ten.How many in comparison to other countries?Appreciate any feed back.Dont  so much Blitzen.Be happy that there are organizations...NOT PETA that will aid the gsd.A good work they do.But when it comes down to brass tax in the coming days..The meaningful knowledge will be"Whom will protect thy neighbor" and hopefully the gsds that are disabled can get by as well as you..together...Peace Out! Candy

Just by taking a quick look at Mutz's extended pedigree, he's not even close to being a foundation dog BTW,  I can see that there are at least 18 different foundation dogs behind him. A foundation dog would be one that was SV registered as purebred but without registered and/or known parents in their official pedigrees - the very first dogs to be recognized by the SV as being purebred. This isn't as many as it may sound like since we are talking about many, many ,many generations behind Mutz maybe 20, 25. It looks to me as if he was a fairly tightly bred dog himself, but that's just my first impression. The first GSD's registered with the SV were in the 1890's. Not sure when Mutz was bred, the forties maybe, Preston can answer that question. So you can see there are a lot of years between him and dogs like Roland, Courage, Grief, Lotte, Franz, Werra, Wolf Rude, Madel, Prima, Lene II, Rassa, Lump, Fanny, etc..