The Beauceron from Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show 08 - Page 6

 Blitzen, what you say makes sense. It's the AKC people who don't accept a correct working dog? That's why those of us with working dogs don't see a problem?

If that Beauceron was imported from France and he exhibited that behavior as long as he was not in an AKC show, we then consider it correct? am I understanding you?

What do you mean "bred for the AKC venue"? Are they in some way changing what the dog is meant to be to make it conform for the AKC venue?

I have been out to a ringcraft meeting tonight with some friends who all have different breeds.  A newbie at the club (1st night) brought a very very nervous toy breed and the whole night was spent showing it that it had nothing to be scared off.  Its nerves sent it going for anything that moved to start with be that the judge approaching it or another dog.  The owner has been told in no uncertain circumstances that it MUST NOT go near a ring until anyone can be put a hand on it and any dog can go up to it without being snarled at.

We have told the owner to treat the obnoxious monster to treat it like a aggressive rottie for 2 weeks and then see what its behaviour is like - they started this tonight and within 2 hours it was already behaving differently and let the judge put his hands on the dog - training doing well or what???

Yes some breeds are wary but this club had 48 dogs in crufts last year with 30 placed in the top 3 in their class and 1 was 2nd in the show overall - so yes they know what they are doing and some of the judges that help out there are international judges and it was made extremely apparent that no showing of teeth to the judge would be tolerated and that dog would be DQ immediately.

gsdlvr2 I "think" what Blitzen meant by "bred for AKC venue" was raised for the AKC venue. Meaning the dog has most likely been handled like this since it was a young dog or pup, and should have learned to accept the exam w/o reacting. She can tell me to shut up and quit putting words in her mouth if I am wrong.  

I don't know Beaucerons, never met one, never had a clue to temperment until reading the standard because of this thread. I do know I have seen similar reactions in a GSD and I don't find it acceptable, so I don't find it acceptable with this dog either because to my puny little brain, the standard sounds pretty close to the same. OK let me ask this... in Schutzhund a dogs temperment is always being evaluated. You walk up to the judge and introduce yourself and your dog. Do you think if the handler walked up to a judge for the introduction and the judge reached down to touch the dog and it reacted like it did, would it be excused for a temperment problem? I do... I have heard of dogs during the BH that broke a down (during the traffic portion)when the group kinda all came in on the dog, and then the judge went to reach for it (another test) ,if it had reacted negatively (backed up or snapped) it would have been outta there.

In French Ring, at least for the Brevet, the judge checks the dog's tattoo. Most of them are on the inner thigh. If a dog has a problem with this, the dog is allowed to be muzzled and not DQ'd for "bad temperment"

 You know what I find funny...people train real hard an get their dogs to do amazing things (retreive, jump, tracking, protection)..but still they can teach a dog to get a tatoo examination. That sounds very bizarre to me..How can you explain that??

The only thing I know about French Ring is it is harder than schutzhund, so I don't know squat about their rules or what goes on there. What do you think about the scenerio for schutzhund though?

Don't know anything about Sch judges, how the work or what they think. I was just using the example of a sport that does not judge a dog as bad temperment if it does not allow itself to be rolled into a submissive position adn be examined by a stranger.

PSA does not have an examination. I can tell you without a doubt they would not DQ a dog for that if the did.

July---

I can only be blunt here. You have no experience with the kinds of dogs I am talking about. It has nothing to do with training and everything to do with the constiution of the dog. 

You have obviously never seen it and have no comprehension of it, so I don't know what I can tell you.

I am not trying to argue or be aggressive. You just do not know and have no experience with these types of dogs. I do not try to debate things I do not know. I have learned that when I do, I end up looking silly.

You have experience with ASS dogs. IF you think what I am describing is bad temperment, than the majority of KNPV or Belgian ring dogs sold as police or military dogs all around the world have bad temperment. I know there are some sharp Sch GSD dogs out there that fall into the same category. You just don't have experience with them.

You can say you don't like that type of temperment. But to say it is a "bad" or unstable temperment, or that these are not "good" dogs, makes you look silly to working dog people who do have experience with these dogs.

Gsdlvr, I think that generally speaking AKC show breeders are basically concerned about how a dog looks and moves rather than if it can do the job it was created to do.  After all very few breeds are "natural", most are the results of humans tweaking other breeds.  Most AKC breeders I know, myself included, give little thought to whether or not a dog can work before they use it for breeding. Most of us look for a dog we think conforms to the standard and one that might produce progeny that will win in the ring today.  We also want a dog that doesn't try to nail the judge when he looks at its bite,  so select for a soft temperament  and a very obedient, trainable dog. The good news is that AKC is encouraging parent breed clubs to design programs that test the dogs' abilities. Herding instincts being one. A step in the right direction I think.

I'm not sure there is a big difference between a dog that is bred for the AKC venue and one that is trained in that way. Over time, 3 or 4 generations of selectively breeding for an AKC show temperament is going to result in dogs that are easily trained to show well, gait at a predetermined speed, and stand for examination.  Can they work? Probably not, but they sure are purty

 It's true GARD,

I've only made a sch. 1 with a shepherd and a 2 with a belgian sheepdog (groendald) ( who bite me many time)you're right I know nothing about working dog. Even thought this dog was great..I didn't think he was a good dog. There was that buble in his head coming up once in a while 9like many belgian!)

I don't care if you think there great dogs even if they bite or would'nt let their tatoo checked. That's your opinion.

I think there is a place for those dogs in working field..and they maybe be great at what they do..but i stil think the switch is a little too turn on to call that stable.When you have to check every move your dog make cause you don't know if he will bite.For me it is not a sound dog..

Now i'm getting off my butt and i'm going to walk the gang.

I agree GARD and for me, I would never trust an ASS to protect me or my family either. I wouldn't trust an ASS to do anything much at all expect eat and cost me vet bills and maybe be a pet. I have nothing against ASSs except I have never met an ASS who was a good representative of the German Shepherd dog. I have never met an ASS who wasn't "crippled". I have never met an ASS who could climb a ladder or run up a slide at the kiddie park. I have never met an ASS who was clear headed. I have never met an ASS who could run fast and catch rabbits (just an example of speed) and I have never met an ASS that I would be proud of. There may be good ASSs out there like that but I have never met one so I think they are rare.  Not trying to be mean but JMO and observation.

Gotcha Blitzen but I'm more purty but must work .  I'm the first to admit I know buppkes about the AKC's ways.