Use of E-Collars - Positive Training??? - Page 6

 TIG, to be fair, I don't think Panzer IS using it as positive punishment...AGAIN, it looks like she's using it as negative reinforcement in the videos. Or a cue or SOMETHING, which she hasn't explained. Positive punishment would imply she's using an aversive stimulus trying to get a behavior to STOP, and since she's using it to get a behavior to increase, it's not positive punishment either. Again refer to the terms. 

And ecbromly, the problem is that they are all using it differently so nobody can explain it uniformly (especially when terms are all mangled). You have GARD using it apparently as positive reinforcement like a clicker (which, thank you GARD, I see how you're using it, would like to actually see it used that way sometime, if you ever get a chance I'd love to see video of it-and no, not as challenge, simply because I want to actually see somebody do it and nobody around here does), you have others using it as negative reinforcement, and still others (though nobody by their descriptions on this thread) using it as positive punishment. And sometimes the same trainer uses it in several different ways. 

The low level stim on a good collar is not painful, it feels just like a TENS unit if you've ever used one of those. On the lowest levels it can hardly be felt. I actually tolerate it better then even static electricity. Most people that haven't felt the collar stim (or felt it on a lesser brand one might just get at the pet store) have it in their minds that the dog is getting electrocuted or something. With a good brand on the low level stim, that's just simply not the case. And Panzer is using the vibration function (which I still stand by the point that almost every pet dog client I've used vibrate on has been freaked out by it more then just the actual stim so I don't use it anymore other then on deaf dogs). 

It is true that somebody that doesn't get the collar should go to seminars etc and learn from experienced trainers. The problem I've seen with that is that everybody uses it differently. I for one when I do use it, have used a low level nick (kind of pulsating it) right before the command, then say the command and when the dog does it, I stop the bumping, and reward the dog for following through with the command. That is in the initial phases of using the collar. But then, there ARE times when I use it for loose leash walking where I just turn and bump the dog and as he turns towards me (which I can use the leash to help that along) the bumping stops. Or there are times I may use it as positive punishment if I'm TRYING to create an aversion to something....though that's not as common with me as with some. I don't personally prefer to use the collar during the teaching phases, have done it before on the advice of other trainers after seminars...but I don't like it so much, and use it after I've at least started shaping a behavior so it's easier for the dog to figure out what I want. But again, it can be used in so many ways and for me, that can change with the dog in front of me. It's also not my most commonly used tool. I tend to use it with handlers I can't get good timing from (I can then work the collar while they just handle the dog), dogs that need to be off leash in a hurry, disabled handlers, or deaf dogs, and sometimes sprucing up various things on my own dogs. It all depends on the dog. But they're right....it is not painful for the dogs in the right hands. My beef with this thread is not the collar itself, simply the use of the terms and not calling a spade a spade so people can figure out what the heck is being talked about. 

I have never owned nor trained with E Collars and never will.  Never had the need for one plus I think if not used wisely could do more harm than good.  From Reading alot of hunting trainers use them and I assume so they can interven from a long  distance as many of the collars selling features are the distance they will work.

But for the average dog owner and trainer I would recommend not to use one. If you do decide to use one them I would suggest you do alot of research  and thought into how you would use it.

It might be a good ideal to shock yourself a few times so you will have an ideal of the effect on the dog realizing the nick you get will not be as strong as the one the dog feels.

 (now I'm going back and re-reading some of the posts, TIG I saw your point, YOU weren't saying panzer was using positive punishment, you were saying she said that correct?)

GARD - I got ya. if you're using it this way (positive reinforcement) do you then eventually switch to escape training? Or use it like a clicker for the rest of the dogs life? THAT is where I was confused...it seems if you used it as positive reinforcement it can only just mean that...but you're saying you can switch it later? 

 Desertrangers you're absolutely right on I think. If you haven't used one and decide to, go train with someone who does and who does it well. I've seen some pretty awful things done with collars in the wrong hands, Then again, I've seen pretty awful things done to dogs on just about every collar. But it IS worse on a remote collar if you don't know what the heck you're doing, use a wrong setting or have poor timing and just start hitting buttons. It's not TOO hard to get the hang of if you train with someone who uses it well, just not for everybody. 

The trick then is, if you were to use it, to make sure to learn it from someone that really does know how to use it. I've seen excellent trainers I know and trust, use a remote collar very poorly, so I don't just go by "I know them and therefore they must be good with the collar". That's where the research comes in. 

I went with a Professional trainer once and watched them break a dog of jumping a 6' fence.  Put the collar on and hide and nicked the dog every time it tried to go over. After 3 attempts the dog stopped trying and this stopped the jumping. In this case it was a benefit as the dog was allowed more freedom and was not in danger of getting hurt or killed or in trouble getting out.   Good points have been made here as bad trainers can abuse anything.

 Shasta,

Thanks for answering my question.  Call me silly, but I like to understand why I'm doing something, and why it works that way.  I'll be the first to admit that I've never used an e'collar and currently I have no plans to use one.  That being said I also don't believe that they are inherently evil or cruel and I probably would have used one "inappropriately" on my 12 month old male over the past couple of months (I just keep repeating "he's just a big puppy, he's just a big puppy").   I would hope that this of all places would be where a discussion of training issues and methods could take place.  

So in that spirit, I have another question for you Shasta.  You said that you give the stim right before you give the command and then remove remove the stim as soon as the dog obeys, then reward.  Would it be better to give the command, then bump until the dog obeys, then reward?  

Thanks,

Ted

 nope,  not from my perspective. THat COULD without the proper level and stuff make a negative association with the cue. I'm sure there are people that do it that way, but my feeling on it is there is this "fly" bothering the dog. I give a command and the dog complies (sometimes with help if needed, could be luring or leash guidance or whatever) then the bumping fly stops. That's just one of the ways though, and usually one of the ways I introduce a collar to a dog depending on the dog. 

Then again, AFTER the dog has an understanding of what you want, and chooses not to do it, it could be used to tidy up, but it really just depends on the dog and the situation which is why it's good to work with a trainer on it. By that point I could say a command, and if the dog chooses not to follow through I could bump until he does and then reward. But by then he understands that he has control over the stimulus so there's no confusion on his part, and thus, WAY less stress for the dog. Low level non painful stim, and teaching him how to control it = no stress for the dog. Of course, best done in drive. 

And then like I said, this is just one of the ways to use it too, apparently it can even be used like a clicker....something I want to see and now am on a quest to try to find someone to show it this way....

Shasta,

Yes you can do it both ways. The main point being that you shape and teach the behaviour through the very low stimulus. On the low setting the dog is not adversly affected and it is nothing more than a sensory marker. Just like a voice or clicker.

Now when the dog knows what is expected of it, but is stimulated by something that is distracting it from obeying the command, you can move to escape training. Again starting at the lower levels, you teach the dog that by obeying the command, the stimulus stops and they get their reward.

Example. I want to teach the dog to sit and give me eye contact while there is a decoy on the field. The dog already has been taught the behaviour through positive motivation. Now he understands what is expected of him, but is way to excited about getting a bite. So the collar goes up in intensity to a level that gets the dogs attention. The dog has been given the command, the stim goes on. The dog starts saying, "OK I know what I have been told to do and am not geting what I want and I have this annoying bug on my neck, what do I need to do to get what I want? Oh yeah, what I was told to do!. The dog oebys the sit command, the collar turns off, and they get the bite.

The problem people have grasping this concept is that they can only see the electirc stim as a negative, pain inducing correction. If one's changes this mindset(not saying you in particular) and starts looking at the collar for what it is; a method of clearly communicating with your dog, it should be easier to grasp the concept. People just have a hard time getting over their own misconceptions about the e-collar.

I am by no means an e-collar guru. Far from it. I was just lucky enough to learn from people who learned from Brian Mowery when e-collar training was in it's infancy. I know there are alot of different technuiqes out there and the more progressive trainers are actually getting away from escape training.

The e-collar used properly is another effective form of operant conditioning. IOW, the dog learns that he is in control (he operates on his environment) and can turn the stimulus on and off by obeying a learned command or offering the correct behavior. During training, the dog is frequently rewarded releases and with verbal praise, toys (balls/tugs), food--and perhaps even a reward bite for clean guarding.

I trained with Jim Dobbs--Brian Mowry used to work with Jim.

Anyhow, a productive discussion.