SV to Reinstate Long Coats in 2010 - Page 6

Also on the last site mentioned above please go to the picture gallery (Bildergalerien) where there are many more pictures including a number showing the dogs doing the work.  Their literature page is also useful.

Another site for your consideration - http://www.ig-altdeutsche-huetehunde.de/  > third down on the menu is the pictures of "type" - I believe you will see a lot of family resemblance there to our coats. Fourth down on the menu is a very interesting discussion of breeding that I think you will enjoy.

What the evidence suggests is just the opposite of what you are proclaiming - that a coated dog could not survive as a herding dog.

ONE MORE TIME - I said a long SOFT coat could not survive because it's not weather resistant.  Isn't that also what YOU said?

A few questions for you:

Where do you live? Does your long coat have a soft or coarse coat? If you are in a cold climate, has your long coat ever developed ice balls on it's pads or anywhere else? Mats behind it's ears that need to be trimmed? Is he or she hard to dry when soaked to the skin? I'd guess if your dog doesn't not have a soft coat, you will be answering no to most of these questions.

I looked at your first link,s one is broken and the other shows sketches of dogs with shaggy coats.  I don't read much German. They look to he as if they have plenty of texture and would be water proof. Have you ever read the breed standard for all other herding breeds?  None call for soft coats although some allow for a good bit of length. A long coat is not always a soft coat.

I'm done with this now. These debates always lead to bad blood between those who breed coats making all sort of excuses for doing so and those who don't. I'm not going there.  If you truly believe that you are right and a dog with a long soft coat could survive, then go for it. Nothing I or anyone else has to say is going to change your mind. The SV had the finla say IMO and if they feel that the long coat is an asset to the breed, then they will revise their thinking. My first GSD was a coat, he collected burrs, mud, matted all the time, formed ice balls in his feet and coat every time it snowed here in PA. His coat was very soft and he had little under coat. That dog could not have survived tending 24/7. Even if he had a barn to sleep in he still  would not have made it.

Point of information - never said I breed LC. I said in 40 years of GSDs I had OWNED one long coat who WAS a herding dog. 

I too will stop since you can't seem to get the point of this thread. No one EVER made an argument for long soft coats WITHOUT undercoats. We all acknowledge they were undesireable right from the start of the breed. What about that didn't you get???? 

This discussion was about the change in the 1990's (note 1990's not 1890's) to move SLC (i.e. with undercoat) from KKl2 to a DQ and the possible reasons such as political or monetary for that change and the reasons why the SV might regret that decision and be thinking about changing it.   THAT IS THE DISCUSSION so everything you have said is IRRELEVENT to it.

Blitzen

Just come hom e from The Dog training and its now past midnight 

I am not talking about Dogs tending herds of Sheep or anything else, i am talking about the Climate over in Germany who you think is so Harsh the Dogs will suffer if they are working in it

You do not believe me when i continue to tell you the weather is never that harsh here that Dogs working in the winter will suffer because they have a Long Coat  soft or otherwise

The Only way for you to know is to come over next winter and  see for yourself

Regarding Snow we get less and less each year and this includes Germany if anything we get more snow where we are than they do because we live very close to the Ardennes

We get very heavy ground and air Frosts but they lift in the Mornings it stays below freezing during the day but not every day.

I cannot vouch for Dogs of any type of Coat  or how the weather  affects them other than the places in have lived and i do know my own area and those close to me and i will not have you thousands of miles away say i do not know what i am taliking about, because that is being arrogant on your part,

I would not dream of contradicting you regards the climate in your country it would be stupid of me to do so and wrong Regards you talking about Dogs Growing a thicker Coat when living outside that is another thing i have said probably more than once

And finally i am not bothered about the problem of Long or Short Coated G.S Dogs in the way some of you people do. I do not show Dogs and i do not breed Dogs

My interest lies in the Competition of Schutzhund ,that is all i want the Dogs for except of course for companions

As it is my two are young, one is just 16 months Old and is due to take his BH but he will take his SchH1 a week or so after as he is well trained up to that, the Long Coat is only 9 months Old, but already showing a lot of brains and is very promising

Do right and fear no one

Did i see you mention Homing Pigeons or over here Racing Pigeons

I have been a pigeon fancier for 56 years, and race only National and International Long distance races

They were the reason i moved over to Belgium to live from the UK. I wanted to compete against the Belgians, Holland, Germany on there own ground,

Steve

As regards Rain, i have already said we get a lot of it and this winter has been no exception a really wet winter over in Belgium, Germany , Holland and Even more so in England with Big Floods  twice this winter

Burrs we do not get or very few. Hot weather in the Summer sometimes last year it reached 42 degs Centigrade but normally about 28 to 30degs centigrade

The Dogs cope okay with that, beause that is the reason the roof is on the Pens to break the heat of the sun beating down on the dogs when they are not moving around

Steve

On April 2nd, I reported that I had spoken with an SV schutzhund judge who had attended a SV delegate day quite recently. He told me that the SV was planning to reinstate long coats.

I then asked HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD THE SAME OR ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

Silbersee & Artarths were the only people who even came close to be on topic. But nNot one person responded to that question of whether they had heard that the SV had voted on this question. I was trying to get some verification about this.

Instead, all this thread has turned into is a debate about the merits of long coats, which was not my intention at all. Just shows that people aren't interested in information so much as arguing with each other

Very true.  I apologize for my part and I'm sure I'm not the only one blushing......BUT at least almost everyone stayed on the subject of LSC, which is quite an accomplishment considering how far off topic  threads have been known to sway!

Zuchtwart........the thread did confirm that many people have no idea of the climate in Germany either....I had to laugh.....course I have only spent 9 wonderful years there.....from Todendorf on the North Sea to Austria and Switzerland.....to Landau close to the French border to Berlin.....Most folks in the USA have no idea how about 70 % of the beautiful country has a climate very similiar to Pa. with the other 30% being very close to Co. Climate.......Sure it can get cold on a Jan night on a hillside in Baulmholder......in a Pup Tent with a bit of snow on the ground and 30 mph winds....and yes in Hof along the old border....in a metal jeep with no heater and a parka wrapped around you for the night...while patroling the old border......But the weather as a whole......like I said...very much like Pa. I have to laugh....I survived it with a flat top (Very Short Hair) ;) and a parka/field jacket...(many times soaked to the bone) i'm sure a LC GSD would make it too.....LOL...........Course now the Germans don't "Baby" their GSD's....they are used to the environment.....not the wood stove and LL Bean  Dog Pad. ROTFL....:) Amazing the things people find to argue about......

Zuchtwart......to answer your question....no...I have no idea...have not heard anything....sorry.

Zuchtwart,

when you get off your high horse who was on topic or not, maybe you can clarify which judge and what "SV delegate day" you are talking about. I am assuming you are talking about the meetings which each Landesgruppe (Region) has for their delegates. The "true" delegates assembly is still quite some time away. The dates are May 31 and June 1.  The individual meetings in each region serve to elect the delegates and have discussions about the directions the delegates should take. After all, the delegate's capacity is to voice the opinion of the region, not his or her own. Also, it is not for sure that this topic will even be on the table. ATARTH quoted me earlier here from a different thread. The SV has a regulation that a topic can not be brought up for 4 years if it is voted down. So personally, I don't think that the topic will be brought up unless it is safe to do so.  But we just have to see.

You wanted more information and I believe I gave it to you. I just returned from Germany last Friday and spoke to a delegate of a region. The SV has been working on the proposals for the long stockcoat for about three years now. The issue is not to change the breed standard and get it approved by the FCI and VDH but to keep dissident groups and orgnaizations out. The reason the SV has a monopoly in our breed is because of its standard. Example now: If the long stockcoat is permitted again, the FCI standard has to be changed. There are at least two big organizations right now in Germany which promote the breeding, showing and titling of coats. There might even be smaller groups as well. None of them have a chance to get approved because of the standard. What do you think will happen when the standard is changed? Do you think that these organizations will self-implode and its members will happily join the SV? Nope, most likely not. They will now have a strong case to get their own approvals. Do you think that this will help our breed? There are voices in Germany who think that it does not matter. After all, other breeds might have two or more organizations, the Mali for example. Personally, I think the reason our breed is where it is, is due to the SV's century long monopoly. And that is something I do not want to see changed. And once a couple of organizations are admitted into the VDH, more will follow. Just look at Raiser's SV-2000. Our breed will be watered down. If you don't like the practice of one organization, just join the next one. You can't compare the GSDs to the Malis, certainly not by sheer quantity.

I hope that you could follow that logic. If you lived in Germany, you would understand these concerns. It certainly does not matter much for most people living here in the U.S., because the longterm effect will take a while to rear its head here. And even then, most people will continue to do their own thing: breed untitled dogs, long stockcoats etc. It does not matter, because there has been a hardcore group following SV-regulations. But if there are changes, then it will have an effect here too. BTW, I like coats and I do not care if they are permitted for breeding or not. I concern myself only with the politics and the changes in regulations. A lot of things are personal tastes and that is ok. In the SV, there is plenty of room to develop tastes. And that is what I like! I will belong to that organization until the say I pass or get out of dogs, whatever comes first.

Chris

I will belong to that organization until the say I pass or get out of dogs, whatever comes first.

Sorry for the typo: I meant day, not say!

Chris

I stand corrected, Max Bear. Somehow I got the stupid idea that it snows in the Alps and that they raise sheep there.  Thanks for the information.