This is a placeholder text
Group text
by ziegenfarm on 20 December 2012 - 20:12
wow, i thought this thread was done a few days ago because i didn't see it on the list. i have something bothering me that is not totally unrelated to this topic. as i posted nearer the beginning of this thread: "performance and production need to go hand in hand because either one without the other is worthless." please hold that thought in mind. :)
then i read:
""Hey, we got a new Boer buck yesterday :). Chekta helped put all the goats into the goat barn day before yesterday for deworming.....she was a tremendous help.The goats don't want to go in 'cause they know when they get in the barn, they get caught, and receive a shot of ivermectin, so it usually hours to get the job done. Chekta figured out what we wanted, and when a goat broke any from the herd she went after it, brought it to the back of the herd and she'd drop down on her own to hold the herd in place. As they started going in, Chekta would walk up to close the space and drop down, until the last of the twenty six goats walked into the barn. It was fantastic to see the training and her intelligence come together into REAL work !!"" i guess this is a situation near and dear to my own heart.
now, on to what's bothering me: it seems that most breeders are going to contracts where pups are sold with limited registrations. the only way they can receive full registrations is if the dog is ofa'd,
titled, etc etc etc. the above dog seems to have very good working ability, to me. i realize not everyone is, but i am, more interested in ability than titles. under many contracts, the above dog would not be a candidate for breeding unless it was titled. i am of the opinion that there is more than one way to look at these registrations. yes, i understand that limited registrations are an attempt to cut down on the number of dogs acquired by backyard breeders who are only interested in producing pups for money, with no thoughts of quality, breed improvement, or the number of dogs that end up in shelters. but on the other hand, i am concerned that these breeders are attempting to shape the breed into nothing but sport dogs.
now, back to the performance and production issue: it has been said time & again that we are not breeding just hips and i would add that i hope we are not breeding just sport dogs, but that we are breeding whole dogs with the bodies, temperament & drives to do real work. are we sacrificing working ability to attempt to breed perfect hips, show titles or sport titles? it has also been said many times, that if you focus on one aspect rather than the whole, there will no longer be balance. at this point, i am inclined to buy from breeders who do not place restrictions on registration because they have enough faith in their own breedings to produce pups that are worthy of full registrations and they have enough faith in me to know when a dog should or shouldnot be bred. i very seldom ever breed anymore, but it has been my experience (not just dogs) that very often the brothers and sisters of top animals turn out to be better producers than the top animal.
pjp
then i read:
""Hey, we got a new Boer buck yesterday :). Chekta helped put all the goats into the goat barn day before yesterday for deworming.....she was a tremendous help.The goats don't want to go in 'cause they know when they get in the barn, they get caught, and receive a shot of ivermectin, so it usually hours to get the job done. Chekta figured out what we wanted, and when a goat broke any from the herd she went after it, brought it to the back of the herd and she'd drop down on her own to hold the herd in place. As they started going in, Chekta would walk up to close the space and drop down, until the last of the twenty six goats walked into the barn. It was fantastic to see the training and her intelligence come together into REAL work !!"" i guess this is a situation near and dear to my own heart.
now, on to what's bothering me: it seems that most breeders are going to contracts where pups are sold with limited registrations. the only way they can receive full registrations is if the dog is ofa'd,
titled, etc etc etc. the above dog seems to have very good working ability, to me. i realize not everyone is, but i am, more interested in ability than titles. under many contracts, the above dog would not be a candidate for breeding unless it was titled. i am of the opinion that there is more than one way to look at these registrations. yes, i understand that limited registrations are an attempt to cut down on the number of dogs acquired by backyard breeders who are only interested in producing pups for money, with no thoughts of quality, breed improvement, or the number of dogs that end up in shelters. but on the other hand, i am concerned that these breeders are attempting to shape the breed into nothing but sport dogs.
now, back to the performance and production issue: it has been said time & again that we are not breeding just hips and i would add that i hope we are not breeding just sport dogs, but that we are breeding whole dogs with the bodies, temperament & drives to do real work. are we sacrificing working ability to attempt to breed perfect hips, show titles or sport titles? it has also been said many times, that if you focus on one aspect rather than the whole, there will no longer be balance. at this point, i am inclined to buy from breeders who do not place restrictions on registration because they have enough faith in their own breedings to produce pups that are worthy of full registrations and they have enough faith in me to know when a dog should or shouldnot be bred. i very seldom ever breed anymore, but it has been my experience (not just dogs) that very often the brothers and sisters of top animals turn out to be better producers than the top animal.
pjp
by Prager on 20 December 2012 - 20:12
Susie. You do not understand the purpose of the study. That study is far, far, faaaar from useless!!! Second quote ( repeated below) is useless only if that is the way you or some crazy person wants to produce dogs which are not dysplastic. That notion is ridiculous, crazy and idiotic and it never even occurred to me that someone would see it that way. However the study was done in order to prove that environment plays role in hips development and it is not just genetics as many say. That fact is not useless. Not to me and many others anyway. .
I am referring to this statement of mine. :
"A.Example is extreme but is illustrative. ( Cornell university...I believe)
1.2 dogs with high HD were bred. Produced litter which was dysplastic.
2. same 2 dogs were bred again and the pups were kept for I believe 1 year in containment where they could be only sitting. None or almost none of the pups have bad hips."
PS I am sorry that my grammar is not up to your standards. English is only one of 6 second languages I am able to communicate. Still learning though.
I am referring to this statement of mine. :
"A.Example is extreme but is illustrative. ( Cornell university...I believe)
1.2 dogs with high HD were bred. Produced litter which was dysplastic.
2. same 2 dogs were bred again and the pups were kept for I believe 1 year in containment where they could be only sitting. None or almost none of the pups have bad hips."
PS I am sorry that my grammar is not up to your standards. English is only one of 6 second languages I am able to communicate. Still learning though.
by Gustav on 20 December 2012 - 20:12
@pjp......I wub
you.....that post of yours is soooooo onpoint!!
you.....that post of yours is soooooo onpoint!! by ziegenfarm on 20 December 2012 - 21:12
i don't know whether this has been mentioned before as this thread has gotten positvely huge...... but
the age, condition & health of the dam prior to breeding, during & after welp has an enormous impact
on the development of the pups. also, extremely large litters affect puppy development by position
in the womb & amount of nutrients each one receives. all this in addition to what is mentioned in hans
post above.
pjp
the age, condition & health of the dam prior to breeding, during & after welp has an enormous impact
on the development of the pups. also, extremely large litters affect puppy development by position
in the womb & amount of nutrients each one receives. all this in addition to what is mentioned in hans
post above.
pjp
by Blitzen on 20 December 2012 - 21:12
Bardens et al also submitted a study that "proved" a dog would never develop HD if confined to a small area 24/7 where it had to sit with it's rear legs in abduction. I don't remember how long those puppies were confined, maybe 6, 7 months.
It's the same as putting a baby with certain hip abnormalities in a spreader cast. Most scholars weren't impressed as they felt that was not information important to dog breeders; it only changed the phenotype, not the genotype.
Next came mega doses of Vit C, that didn't work out too well either.
It's the same as putting a baby with certain hip abnormalities in a spreader cast. Most scholars weren't impressed as they felt that was not information important to dog breeders; it only changed the phenotype, not the genotype.
Next came mega doses of Vit C, that didn't work out too well either.
by Prager on 20 December 2012 - 21:12
Ziegenfarm Yes I have mentioned it on page 24.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=673442-czech-gsds-with-bad-hips--jirkova-dvora&pagen=24
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=673442-czech-gsds-with-bad-hips--jirkova-dvora&pagen=24
by susie on 20 December 2012 - 21:12
|
Prager: " PS I am sorry that my grammar is not up to your standards. English is only one of 6 second languages I am able to communicate. Still learning though." |
by susie on 20 December 2012 - 21:12
Forgot to say - I don´t like to be called crazy from somebody who doesn´t even know me.
There is a difference between a discussion and an insult, no matter in which of your 6 languages you write it down.
There is a difference between a discussion and an insult, no matter in which of your 6 languages you write it down.
by hexe on 21 December 2012 - 00:12
ziegenfarm, no need to worry regarding the restrictions in a contract--contracts can be renegotiated if all parties involved are in agreement. I agree with you that titles are not the be-all and end-all, and a dog such as joanro's, who apparently demonstrates a significant level of instinctive herding behavior combined with responsiveness to handler direction, should not be dismissed as a potential breeding candidate on the basis of something like a working title.
by J Basler on 21 December 2012 - 00:12
GUSTAV
I want you to know that you are one of the people that i do pay attention to.
I want to thank you for the information that you provide to this forum don't ever give up on people, you do have good message.
I want you to know that you are one of the people that i do pay attention to.
I want to thank you for the information that you provide to this forum don't ever give up on people, you do have good message.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
