Strong sit and bark - Page 5

 ron writes: "he continually bothers the helper by putting his feet on him....:-) does that suffice?"

Yes, it most definitely suffices as it lends to the discussion. Thank you.
There was a time when there was little to no point loss for this displacement behavior. I suggest it is indicative of a dog trying to dominate the helper though body pressure. Would this behavior, which is now a point deduction, perhaps indicate a dog of strong character, and since it does now involve loss of points, is there not a tendancy to select for dogs that do not naturally exhibit it, ie. perhaps a weaker dog?

Best of luck with your puppy.

@Sue,

How's about we do like Rosie suggests and discuss the topic? Since Ron addressed my first question, why not tackle my second?

And I would suggest it is behavior that is telling of  an insecure  dog who cannot  dominate and intimidate a man without touching him.  I did address your question, go back and read what I said.  Now you can answer mine.   And if you are finally willing to drop the 'tude and stop the insults, I say that is nothing but a good thing.  If something Rosie said got through to you on that level, I am grateful to her.

I prefer JimBeam Talka Marda to hist littermate brother,  Javir.  You can find video of this fine dog's B&H and guarding here:  http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/59123/Jimbeam%20vom%20Talka%20Marda/

 @Sue.
You wrote: "And I would suggest it is behavior that is telling of  an insecure  dog who cannot  dominate and intimidate a man without touching him."

Specifically:
Do you think Mr. Murphy was exhibiting insecurity in this exercize?  
and
re Bellon video:
Does this shaping qualify for being termed what you called "worked in prey"?
Do you think these dogs' trial performances were helped by the exercize being shaped this way?

there is nothing strong about a dog that continually harasses the helper...now looking at Mr. Murphy:-)  you really think he's dominating anything....the domination should come when the helper moves.....again, teaching a dog in prey to bark at a ball is different than barking at a helper in the blind....especially a helper who has a strong presence...and gender of helper has nothing to do with it.

I feel you are being argumentative.  I have answered  your questions, I don't think anyone is confused as to where I stand.  The fact is you just don't like my answers and are consequently trying to argue with me about it.   It is no different than when I asked you something about the statement you made about the majority of working GSDs no longer having schutzhund titles in their pedigrees and are coming from other sports, but even though I felt yours was not a  satisfactory response, I let it drop because you are entitled to your opinion. 

 Ron,
Mr. Murphy knew the rules. "While the guy stands still, I can't bite him. But if I poke him long enough he will move and I get to fight him." That behavior with that motive behind it is dominant behavior.

"again, teaching a dog in prey to bark at a ball is different than barking at a helper in the blind"

The behavior can be so shaped that the end product looks the same.

@Sue,
This is a discussion forum, not a group therapy session. Projected feelings and attempted probes into personal lives are innappropriate.

Re GSD as service dogs: I know a broker who sells dual purpose dogs. I estimate maybe one out of 20 is a GSD. Most are Malinois or Dutch Shepherds and have KNPV (okay, not technically a sport but just as choreographed as SchH) or Belgian/French Ring breeding. That is a fact, not my opinion. Perhaps he is an anomoly and you know of brokers who sell proportionately more GSDs?

Mr. Murphy knew the rules. "While the guy stands still, I can't bite him. But if I poke him long enough he will move and I get to fight him." That behavior with that motive behind it is dominant behavior.

Nope,  he didn't know the rules which are I must intimidate and hold without touching.  This becomes very clear when working dogs with strong helpers.  Weak dogs can't handle it and it shows because they start molesting the helper, but the dogs who bark for their toy or have decoys that act like big toys look good to the easily impressed, I guess. 

"again, teaching a dog in prey to bark at a ball is different than barking at a helper in the blind"
The behavior can be so shaped that the end product looks the same.

Nope, that's the thing, it doesn't look the same at all all..
@Sue,
This is a discussion forum, not a group therapy session. Projected feelings and attempted probes into personal lives are innappropriate. 

PRotracted  rudeness such as you display has no room here.  You think your obnoxious and rude manners will be tolerated long on this board?  Guess again, the times they are a changin. 

Re GSD as service dogs: I know a broker who sells dual purpose dogs. I estimate maybe one out of 20 is a GSD. Most are Malinois or Dutch Shepherds and have KNPV (okay, not technically a sport but just as choreographed as SchH) or Belgian/French Ring breeding. That is a fact, not my opinion. Perhaps he is an anomoly and you know of brokers who sell proportionately more GSDs?
Let me get this straight:  You know ONE broker who sells dual purpose dogs?   Well there you go, Stephanie, that pretty much says it all right there.