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by charlie319 on 25 June 2010 - 18:06
by VonIsengard on 25 June 2010 - 19:06
Breedworthy, popular, and marketable are all different things, the last two often not being in the breed's best interest.
by Steve Schuler on 25 June 2010 - 20:06
@Gustav
Thanks for your positive comment about what I wrote. As much as anything I suppose I was just taking the time to write out some thoughts that I have had for a while. Good exercise for the mind and I think it helps organize one's thinking. As I said previously, I am not a breeder. I think that people who approach that enterprise with a sufficient sense of responsiblity have undertaken a pretty formidable task. As your last post briefly illustrates, there are many, many, factors to be considered and it is not easy to gain the experience necessary to begin to sort it out or to develop the network of relationships that help one move forward.. Some very potent consideraton for why I am not a breeder. Essentially anyone with sufficient financial resources can acquire breeding stock that have the "right" pedigree and the "right" credentials, or at least an impressive pedigree, though they may be lacking in accreditation of their conformation, character, and workability. And I am sure for the most part they have a pretty good chance of producing some pretty decent dogs. I don't mean to be overly critical or judgemental about people who are engaged in the business, because without the breeders how would the buyers, such as myself, acquire the dogs for which we have so much affection? I do wish there was less Hype, but then again I don't have any puppies to peddle.
@Charli 319
I think I share your perspective on the current state of affairs in the breeding industry. To a large degree on both sides of the Great Divide in the German Shepherd world it is evident that there are sucessive generations of both Show and Working Line dogs being bred to STARS in their different venues. Chanpions being bred to Champions being bred to Champions and so on. It does not seem unreasonable to think that ultimately the result will be fewer and fewer dogs being produced who really do meet the criterion, in some broad sense, of being good representatives of the Golden Middle.
Speaking for myself, my next dog will probably be from DDR and/or Czech llines. Don't know for sure. After all, every pup is an individual, not a pedigree, something to always keep in mind.
Just my thoughts from the Peanut Gallery, take them for what they are worth.
SteveO
by Bark and Hold on 25 June 2010 - 20:06
Who set the standard? In the preface to the v. Stephanitz book ,"The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture", there is a brief message as to why the S.V. was established and what it hoped to accomplish. It states,"The society promotes the select breeding, endavours to raise the capacity for work, as well as to consolidate and accomplish the natural utility dispositions of the German Shepherd dog, so to give to the agriculture an in dispensable assistant and to the authorities a reliable dog qualified for every service according to his body construction and disposition. The further aims of the society are: propagation for the German shepherd dog as COMPANION, WATCH AND PROTECTING DOG..."
I am really confused myself, and the ONLY thing I know for certain is that "temperament" and "health" ("health" encompassing hips, elbows, gastro-intestinal issues, etc...) should be the top priority for "breed worthiness" of working line, show line, or pet.
It is not my intention to stir a work vs. show debate, as both lines have "titled" representatives that are "bred to standard" but don't really appear to meet the intended goal of the S.V. and are equally unsuitable for a wide variety of tasks... Even a companion dog. It seems to me that often times when people speak of showline dogs being "bred to standard", it begins and ends with the color, size, and structure.... What about temperament? Or at the very least, what about prey drive? Surely, a herding animal needs prey drive, and for sure, a dog needs prey drive to even begin to be capable of handling protection work. Do you know why you only need 70 points in protection to "achieve" SchH I, but you need at least 80 points to move on to the SchH II? It is so that the showline dogs can be bred... Dolla, dolla bill y'all.
What did the S.V. mean as "companion"? What did it mean by "watch and protection"? A high prey dog, show or working, can attain high protection scores, but that does not necessarily mean that it will protect you (And I am not confusing sport training with ppd training)...I simply mean what the dog possesses. I know people who breed dogs from untitled parents, and their offspring certainly embody more of what a German Shepherd should be than some people who breed only titled parents of either lines. I know of people who breed both lines together and they are accused of not breeding to standard... But their dogs are a hell of a lot more breed worthy than some other dogs that are "bred to standard".
I don't know of any other animal that has this disparity... Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle?
by VonIsengard on 25 June 2010 - 22:06
And a good dog "bred to the middle" is still perfectly capable of meeting the standard as Stephanitz set it. And if said dogs are capable and the breeder with their non working (notice I do not just say untitled) dogs regularly chooses to thumb their nose at the concept, then it begs the question are they not also just "about the money"?
I think an SG rated dog with health clearances who is, lets say, an exceptional PPD dog or working K9 is equally worthy. I daresay Stephanitz and others like him would prefer such a dog over some (not all) modern sport dogs.
by Bark and Hold on 26 June 2010 - 19:06
I think you are right about the 80 points for the breed survey... I assume you are hinting at the elusive "pink papers". But let's be realistic in that there are many ways to come by these "proofs" of breed worthiness. I personally believe you must look to the dog and not a piece of paper.
I have seen quite a few pink papered show line dogs that are seriously lacking in prey drive, hardness, and definitely lacking fight drive or courage. To me, they lack what truly embodies a German Shepherd... A herding dog that is also a protection dog (a truly multi-tasking, utilitarian dog) must have these traits. And it is not the dog's fault... It has been bred out of them at the expense of what is appealing to the eye. Or what makes money.
On the other hand, show line dogs typically make for easier, if not better, living companions. There truly is something to be said for that. And to be honest, a big dog that barks is a good deterrent even if there is not much bite behind that bark.
Anyway, back to the original question asked in this post, I believe that in order for a working line German Shepherd dog to be truly "breed worthy" it must first and foremost have good temperament and good hip and elbow ratings in multiple, preceding generations. Temperament is one of those words that encompasses a lot of attributes, but for the most part I mean that the dog is CLEAR, and does not display unwarranted aggression or unnecessary fear. It should be inquisitive, exploratory, and display a level of intelligence expected of that which has been developed as a multi-tasking, companion to man.
A breed worthy working line also should have AMPLE PREY DRIVE, food drive, good concentration (i.e. deep nose), pack drive (meaning willingness to work with master), full, calm grips, and courage.
by Slamdunc on 26 June 2010 - 20:06
You wrote to justify breeding your two dogs:
conformation -
I was not referring to the show lines conformation as the ideal............
I was referring to conformation that gives a dog the ability to work and to live a long life without falling apart.
I was also referring to conformation that still maintaines the beauty of the GSD.
No wobbly hind legs, no hock walking, no collie heads, no straight pasterns, no east west fronts, and the like.... and still be identifiable as a GSD...
work -
SchH is not the only type of work a GSD can do......
Herding, Therapy, Police K-9, French Ring, Search and Rescue, Therapy, Agility, Obedience, Leading the Blind..... there are so many ways in which a dog can be trained to work.
Hero is out of a double VA breeding, he has an excellent temperament, lots of prey drive and is able to tell a good guy from a thug (he has proved this in real life), is SG rated has good hips and elbows. He very willing to worker and has the endurance to go on forever.
This breeding is to prove he can actually impregnate a bitch before I spend thousands of dollars to send him away to get him titled. There are so many horror stores of dogs that have been sent out for training, titled and then come back only to find out that they are not able to reproduce. Yes I had his sperm checked, but just because there are lots of them and they swim doesn't mean they can get inside an egg.
Both Hero and Sita can climb a 6' wall, they can jump a 3' wall, they are not afraid of gunfire, they have plenty of drive, neither are afraid of their own shadows, and they are not so hyper active that thier pads are raw. Once this proving litter is done, they will both be back into training.
Ok, so titles aren't important, but working is....What work do your dogs do? Your dogs can climb a 6' A frame and jump a 3' wall. Virtually any dog of any breed can do this, including mutts. Hero's conformation is OK, not outstanding, not titled, doesn't work as you say a dog must. Sita is not titled, coated, are you breeding her to see if her eggs are good or just to find out if Hero can impregnate a female and chose her? Wouldn't you want to put the effort into the training and titling of the dogs to see if they are breed worthy? Since neither does real work as you say is equally important. I've owned better examples of the breed and spent my time working and titling them and never bred them. Aren't there better, proven studs out there to use if you want to better the breed? No doubt your dogs are nice pets and good companions with good hips, does that make them breed worthy? What does this breeding really offer. The parents, the Double VA (?) pedigree, coat and color don't make a dog worthy in my opinion. They are just pieces of the puzzle that you add together, then you must honestly evaluate the dog and see what it really offers to the breed.
I'm just trying to understand and compare what you post here to what you actually do. Naturally, you live in the US and do not need to title, xray or do anything to breed dogs. Here breeding these two dogs is acceptable, but why list what you think is so important to be breed worthy and not adhere to your own qualifications?
Jim
by judron55 on 26 June 2010 - 21:06
I do have a web site for my 2 dogs I own now. If you want to find it bad enough....you will. I ain't hiding:-) Now go play with Izzy!
by SitasMom on 27 June 2010 - 01:06
Jim,
why should you care about what I do, why do you want to psycho-analyze me?
it is any of your business?
i believe that your question was answered already.......BTW, Hero has already been sent to train........
now get off my back!
by Slamdunc on 27 June 2010 - 01:06
My reason for asking is that you come on and post what you believe makes a GSD breed worthy which was a good response. Then you do something completely against what you post.
You are right it's your business not mine and for you it is a business. I thought you trained with a club, interesting that you sent him away for training. I hope he does well and gets titled.
You really don't have to explain anything to me, but when you post one thing and do something completely different people may ask you questions.
Jim
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