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by mtndawg on 12 March 2010 - 01:03
atc237...I'd like to check out some of the dogs you have bred. Kennel name please?
by mobjack on 12 March 2010 - 01:03
atc237
Go find someplace else to troll.
Silbersee's reputation speaks for itself and needs no defending here on this board or elsewhere.
Chris is an excellent breeder, very well liked and respected, her knowledge for the GSD is extensive. She knows what she produces, cares very much for all of her dogs, and works very hard to breed the best dogs she possibly can. Both show and working lines.
Go find someplace else to troll.
Silbersee's reputation speaks for itself and needs no defending here on this board or elsewhere.
Chris is an excellent breeder, very well liked and respected, her knowledge for the GSD is extensive. She knows what she produces, cares very much for all of her dogs, and works very hard to breed the best dogs she possibly can. Both show and working lines.
by atc237 on 12 March 2010 - 03:03
I'm not a breeder. If i was i'd breed for the betterment of GSD's. Sorry, breeding showlines doesn't cut it, it truly has hurt the breed immensly. Name calling will not change that fact.
by Jantie on 12 March 2010 - 06:03
I daresay Lisa has no reason whatsoever to be on this forum. I'm sure her parents know that THIS is a war zone!
And everyone not standing the heat should stay out of hell's kitchen.
Very strange Silbersee that you should start appealing to my personal emotions. People did not consider mine when we went through the acking story of Indiana! I feel intensely with the family, but I do not need to show off on a public forum and tell everyone. I mourn in the back.
Point is this. Breeding is Big Business for the Happy Few.
They need to find a market to place "all of them dogs", keeping the rough diamonds for themselves, selling the HD-infested mass to a public far away. They have no interest whatsoever in the health or even the future of the breed, have "them studs" fu** their brains out (you have no idea what it does to a dog when he has to perform on a daily basis (check the SV-Stud Reports - or do you want to see my stats? or shall I quote a couple of names?), only to make as much money as possible.
In order to achieve good placings at shows - either to raise selling prices or to increase the amount of studs - "connections" are needed and bribery is lurking around the corner. The show has gone on for 4 decades now, and as the market is shrinking, them sellers fear for their nuts/muts (sorry, its early morn'). What is happening in Germany now, is the battle for power. Top-ranking judges are at war, seeing eath other more in court than at BSZS. The club is sueing its own people (for years) but still allows them to judge major events - how sick is that? It's an election year and everybody will want a piece of the cake. But the cake don't feed all!
When somebody has to be ashamed, then it's certainly not me. Now you're in it over your ears Silbersee, in this show business (Show + Business!), with your "connections" - I will refrain from naming them - so why do you not appeal to them. They are all into this "show" (charade?), so they can actually start to make a change.
Back to our subject: Top dogs have died way befor their age and nobody wonders. Erasmus van Noort (and this is HEARSAY!!) has died from a stroke, apparently, but from what people tell me, his Cauda Equina was "the reason that killed him". (How many progeny does this dog have? Want me to check?) Now we would all want to know what is the truth right?
Anyway, in the case of Zamp, point is this: people want to know, because more than 1.200 of his progeny carry whatever he gave them. And people are of course entitled to know. The kennel club should take note of everything and draw lessons from it.
Your quote: "Es bringt mich aber auf die Palme..."
is good!!
Palme is a vey interesting subject!!
EVERYTHING is based on Palme (and Quanto).
EVERYTHING is HD!
Ich habe keine Lust auf irgend etwas zu warten.
Die Rasse wartet nicht, sie erkankt! Und zwar sehr.
Ich kann dir keinen Frieden schenken, wenn alles den Bach runtergeht. Tut mir Leid!
Also, muss man auf die Barrikaden gehen.
Dr. Dieter von Stephanitz hat mich kürzlich in ein persönliches Schreiben folgendes gesagt:
"Mein Grossvater hatte das Notwendige vorgegeben: "Schäferhundezucht ist Gebrauchshundezucht!" Sollten der SV und seine Mitglieder sich nicht ausreichend daran halten, so würde es nicht das erstemal sein, dass Enkel oder Urenkel das Werk der Gross- oder Urgrossväter ruinieren. Ich weiss nicht, ob es im Fall des SV schon so weit ist. Widerstand dagegen kann nur aus den Reihen der SV-Mitglieder und Züchter kommen".
In diesem Sinne!
Jan
And everyone not standing the heat should stay out of hell's kitchen.
Very strange Silbersee that you should start appealing to my personal emotions. People did not consider mine when we went through the acking story of Indiana! I feel intensely with the family, but I do not need to show off on a public forum and tell everyone. I mourn in the back.
Point is this. Breeding is Big Business for the Happy Few.
They need to find a market to place "all of them dogs", keeping the rough diamonds for themselves, selling the HD-infested mass to a public far away. They have no interest whatsoever in the health or even the future of the breed, have "them studs" fu** their brains out (you have no idea what it does to a dog when he has to perform on a daily basis (check the SV-Stud Reports - or do you want to see my stats? or shall I quote a couple of names?), only to make as much money as possible.
In order to achieve good placings at shows - either to raise selling prices or to increase the amount of studs - "connections" are needed and bribery is lurking around the corner. The show has gone on for 4 decades now, and as the market is shrinking, them sellers fear for their nuts/muts (sorry, its early morn'). What is happening in Germany now, is the battle for power. Top-ranking judges are at war, seeing eath other more in court than at BSZS. The club is sueing its own people (for years) but still allows them to judge major events - how sick is that? It's an election year and everybody will want a piece of the cake. But the cake don't feed all!
When somebody has to be ashamed, then it's certainly not me. Now you're in it over your ears Silbersee, in this show business (Show + Business!), with your "connections" - I will refrain from naming them - so why do you not appeal to them. They are all into this "show" (charade?), so they can actually start to make a change.
Back to our subject: Top dogs have died way befor their age and nobody wonders. Erasmus van Noort (and this is HEARSAY!!) has died from a stroke, apparently, but from what people tell me, his Cauda Equina was "the reason that killed him". (How many progeny does this dog have? Want me to check?) Now we would all want to know what is the truth right?
Anyway, in the case of Zamp, point is this: people want to know, because more than 1.200 of his progeny carry whatever he gave them. And people are of course entitled to know. The kennel club should take note of everything and draw lessons from it.
Your quote: "Es bringt mich aber auf die Palme..."
is good!!
Palme is a vey interesting subject!!
EVERYTHING is based on Palme (and Quanto).
EVERYTHING is HD!
Ich habe keine Lust auf irgend etwas zu warten.
Die Rasse wartet nicht, sie erkankt! Und zwar sehr.
Ich kann dir keinen Frieden schenken, wenn alles den Bach runtergeht. Tut mir Leid!
Also, muss man auf die Barrikaden gehen.
Dr. Dieter von Stephanitz hat mich kürzlich in ein persönliches Schreiben folgendes gesagt:
"Mein Grossvater hatte das Notwendige vorgegeben: "Schäferhundezucht ist Gebrauchshundezucht!" Sollten der SV und seine Mitglieder sich nicht ausreichend daran halten, so würde es nicht das erstemal sein, dass Enkel oder Urenkel das Werk der Gross- oder Urgrossväter ruinieren. Ich weiss nicht, ob es im Fall des SV schon so weit ist. Widerstand dagegen kann nur aus den Reihen der SV-Mitglieder und Züchter kommen".
In diesem Sinne!
Jan
by noddi on 12 March 2010 - 09:03
can people contributing on these threads please write your comments in english,as well,for us that dont understand german.thanks.jantie ,i do agree that people will be wondering why these dogs have died at a youngish age,BUT I STILL THINK THAT A CERTAIN TIME SHOULD ELAPSED BEFORE QUESTIONS ARE RAISED,to allow the owners to grieve.i am a showline breeder,but havent had a litter for 7yrs.i only have 3 of my animals still alive,a male coming up for 11 this year,his half sister coming up to 10 and her daughter at 7.their dam died aged 12,her dam died aged 12 and her dam my foundation bitch at 9.many animals from my original bitch have died funnily enough around 12,tho a couple have gone earlier,but as i qouted in an earlier post on this thread one died aged 3,had a inherited condition but in the end vet attributed it to cancer.i agree that a great number of show breeders are not forthcoming with answers,and some that do want to be truthful about inherited health problems in a few of their dogs are threatened by either stud owner or bitch owner.i dont know wot the answer is.everyone feels threatened and therefore the answers dont come out into the open.we have certain people here in the uk collating details,mainly from pet people,in respect of epiletics ,hd,anal f.epi etc.BUT THEY CANT GIVE OUT THE INFO ON THESE ANIMALS NAME,OR THE SIRE ,DAM TILL THEY ARE DEAD.THIS IS RIDICULOUS .i feel sorry for these people as they are doing this for the breed and their hands are tied.we need this info to be made public when it comes in to stop other animals passing these conditions on.i just hope your info is correct as THAT TOO CAN BE DANGEROUS FOR THE BREED AND MAYBE YU YOURSELF IF THE DOG OWNER CONCERNED TAKES YU TO COURT.
by Liesjers on 12 March 2010 - 14:03
What exactly do you propose then? To never breed to males until they are dead so we know how and why and at what exact age they die? Or are you able to predict cancers? Have you discovered the genetic links scientists have been researching for decades? Please do share....
by noddi on 12 March 2010 - 15:03
liesjer,are yu relying to my post?i stated that certain people in the gsd breed are collating info.on animals that are suffering from the inherited diseases re gsds(ie pedigreesBUT UNFORTUNATELY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GIVE OUT THE DETAILS OF SAID PEDIGREES NOR THE NAME OF SIRE OR DAM UNTIL THE DEATH OF SAID ANIMALS.I stated that this wasRIDICULOUS.WE NEED TO KNOW STRAIGHT AWAY NOT WHEN THEY ARE DEAD.we all know that people do not admit to having produced these conditions for fear of reprisals from stud dog owner/bitch.i dont know wot the answer is.
by gagsd4 on 12 March 2010 - 16:03
Out of my last four competition prospects...
#1- bad hips and neck. Bad enough that it affects his day-to-day mobility and he is 5 years old now.
#2- died of adult onset mega-esophagus. Looking back, she always was hard to keep weight on and I think she had congenital mega-e. Doing later research, I was told her paternal grandmother produced mega-e.
#3- bad hips and just diagnosed with perianal fistulas.
#4- 10 months old and looking good right now:)
I also took in a pregnant WGr showline bitch several years ago who promptly whelped a litter of four, both females with significant heart defects, both males cryptorchid.
When I send in OFA's, I check the box for full release of information. If hips/elbows/heart or whatever is bad, people need to know it. I wish they had a comments section so that the owners could make statements ie. awful allergies, mega-e, or that the dog lived to be 14 and peacefully died in his sleep.
IMO breeders have a huge responsibility to puppy buyers and later generations to make honest information available.
--Mary
by noddi on 12 March 2010 - 16:03
thank yu gagsd4.i wish there was such a box or even a dept at the kc where one could inform of any inherited genetic conditions ones animal has and also to inform of a dogs death and the reason if known.i recently had to have 1 of my bitches spayed due to a pyo and had phoned them for the form i needed to fill in so i could still show her .i enquired as to whether i could delete the dogs i owned who had died.to my surprise they informed me that they hadnt the facility to do this.i find this incredible.
by Silbersee on 12 March 2010 - 17:03
Jan,
ich appeliere nicht an Deine Gefühle, sondern an den Anstand gegenüber der Familie Dietrich! Und es stimmt nicht, daß keiner Mitgefühl für Dich und besonders Deine Tochter hatte damals wie Du das mit Indiana durchgemacht hast. Auch ich habe das schon mal mitgemacht mit einer Hündin, die ich von einem bekannten Züchter als Welpe gekauft hatte. Das ist aber nun schon über 20 Jahre her. Anders als du bin ich aber nicht bitter darüber geworden, sondern habe selbst angefangen zu züchten. Daher kann ich beide Seiten gut verstehen.
Mobjack, thanks!! You know I appreciate words like that a lot!
But a person like atc will not tell you what experiences he has if any. People like him are keyboard activists, nothing else! Not worth commenting on and he is usually ignored in other threads anyway. Shame on me for giving him the attention he craves but I could not resist in light of a dog like Zamp.
Jantie,
I am sorry but I can not share your concerns. Dogs like any animal and humans can die, can become ill or live a long life. There is no proof that dogs nowadays have a shorter life span than maybe 50 or 60 years ago. What I could agree on is that there are concerns with the dog food we feed! Genetic problems have always been around. As medical research progresses, we are more and more able to pinpoint the cause. But the mills of bureaucracy grind slowly. It takes a while to convince breeders and people that matter what to do.
You think that our dogs suffer due to the greed of some breeders. Some might but there will always be breeders with a conscience. It is up to the prospective buyer where they will purchase their puppies. Unfortunately, it is a human weakness to fall for placements, ranks and points achieved in trials or fancy ads and websites. Buyers direct the market, it is as simple as that. People want all kinds of tests and certifications (which they should) but at the same time, they do not understand that breeders have to charge them accordingly to afford all this. This is where they will fall prey to puppy mills and backyard breeders. I could go on and on, a waste of time! But one thing I can add: It happens everywhere, not only in the GSD breed or dog circles for that matter. Talk to horse people and you will really get an ear full!
And Liesjers is absolutely right! What do you propose then? Have a huge sperm bank in the hopes that one of these days these males will be declared fit for breeding? How can you keep all this in proportion! All I have ever heard is complaints! What do you suggest? Out of experience, I can tell you that the grass is not any greener on the other side. Both, workinglines and showlines have their health problems and inbreeding accumulations. On the showline side, it is Palme (Uran, Q-litter) and on the workingline side Fero (T-litter). Before the era of split, it was the B-litter Lierberg and Vello Sieben Faulen, and before that the Preußenblut and Osnabrücker Land dogs - although it used to be more geographically restricted then. There have always been linebreedings in this breed. But the newbie breeders and fanciers do not really realize that. They often do not look past the first 6 generations or so. This is called loss of genetics or inbreeding depression and it happened long before the split! Talk to experts like Lothar Quoll!
ich appeliere nicht an Deine Gefühle, sondern an den Anstand gegenüber der Familie Dietrich! Und es stimmt nicht, daß keiner Mitgefühl für Dich und besonders Deine Tochter hatte damals wie Du das mit Indiana durchgemacht hast. Auch ich habe das schon mal mitgemacht mit einer Hündin, die ich von einem bekannten Züchter als Welpe gekauft hatte. Das ist aber nun schon über 20 Jahre her. Anders als du bin ich aber nicht bitter darüber geworden, sondern habe selbst angefangen zu züchten. Daher kann ich beide Seiten gut verstehen.
Mobjack, thanks!! You know I appreciate words like that a lot!
But a person like atc will not tell you what experiences he has if any. People like him are keyboard activists, nothing else! Not worth commenting on and he is usually ignored in other threads anyway. Shame on me for giving him the attention he craves but I could not resist in light of a dog like Zamp.
Jantie,
I am sorry but I can not share your concerns. Dogs like any animal and humans can die, can become ill or live a long life. There is no proof that dogs nowadays have a shorter life span than maybe 50 or 60 years ago. What I could agree on is that there are concerns with the dog food we feed! Genetic problems have always been around. As medical research progresses, we are more and more able to pinpoint the cause. But the mills of bureaucracy grind slowly. It takes a while to convince breeders and people that matter what to do.
You think that our dogs suffer due to the greed of some breeders. Some might but there will always be breeders with a conscience. It is up to the prospective buyer where they will purchase their puppies. Unfortunately, it is a human weakness to fall for placements, ranks and points achieved in trials or fancy ads and websites. Buyers direct the market, it is as simple as that. People want all kinds of tests and certifications (which they should) but at the same time, they do not understand that breeders have to charge them accordingly to afford all this. This is where they will fall prey to puppy mills and backyard breeders. I could go on and on, a waste of time! But one thing I can add: It happens everywhere, not only in the GSD breed or dog circles for that matter. Talk to horse people and you will really get an ear full!
And Liesjers is absolutely right! What do you propose then? Have a huge sperm bank in the hopes that one of these days these males will be declared fit for breeding? How can you keep all this in proportion! All I have ever heard is complaints! What do you suggest? Out of experience, I can tell you that the grass is not any greener on the other side. Both, workinglines and showlines have their health problems and inbreeding accumulations. On the showline side, it is Palme (Uran, Q-litter) and on the workingline side Fero (T-litter). Before the era of split, it was the B-litter Lierberg and Vello Sieben Faulen, and before that the Preußenblut and Osnabrücker Land dogs - although it used to be more geographically restricted then. There have always been linebreedings in this breed. But the newbie breeders and fanciers do not really realize that. They often do not look past the first 6 generations or so. This is called loss of genetics or inbreeding depression and it happened long before the split! Talk to experts like Lothar Quoll!
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