vom Banach - Page 5

I don't have a big problem with experienced dog people buying a dog with a contract that is almost impossible to understand and collect on. If they get screwed, it's shame on them. It's the novice who is most likely to get screwed without recourse on a dog deal gone bad. An experienced buyer knows where the bodies are buried and how to force a breeder into doing the right thing.  Then there are the breeders who sell all their dogs for one price with no guarantees. Again, a buyer's option.

I don't consider a written contract an ironclad document and many times the breeder will do all he or she can do get out of honoring one. Most of us just walk away and the beat goes on. I do consider a breeder who offers a written contract to at least be putting forth the effort to look ethical and that he or she is confident that the breeding stock is sound and disease free. It sends the message to me that that those are the breeders who are most likely to stand behind their dogs. I've never had a breeder refuse to honor a contract and now I only buy dogs from those I know well and those who have great reputations in the breed so I don't require a written contract. A little research will generally tell us who can be trusted and who can't.

A contract doesn't need to be lengthy and complicated and one cannot address every issue that MAY happen over the lifetime of the dog. I think it's quite reasonable to place time limits on how long a breeder can be expected to replace on a dog - 2 years, 3 years for conditions and diseases thought to be genetic in nature. 4, 6 weeks for a communicable disease. Things not addressed in a contract can be decided case-by-case and that can be stated in the contract as well. I don't think it's fair to put one's own spin on what is genetic and what isn't in spite of what the experts say. To insist that a dog is fed a specific diet, or not allowed to do this or that in order for a contract to be effective really is a loophole for the breeder. How can it ever be proven one way or the other? Someone here argued with me years ago that he only gurantees against genetic HD. When I asked who decides that and how, that he said - my vet. Some answer.

When I bred another large breed, my pet contract said - if xrayed and found to be dysplastic, the dog must be able to function normally as a pet as an adult or it would be replaced or a full refund issued as agreed upon by all involved parties. Dogs sold for show/breeding were guaranteed to receive an OFA clearance of fair, good, or excellent at 24 months of age; those dogs must have been xrayed by the time they were 25 months old. The diagnosis had to have been made by a radiologist or the OFA and I reserved the right to see a copy of the xray.

In some breeds it is impossible to sell a dog to another breeder without a written contract. It is part of doing business in much of the AKC dog world and it's the American way. Many breed clubs strongly suggest to their members that they provide written contracts. The GSDCA is one of those parent clubs and any member who wishes to be recognized as a Breeder of Merit must do that.

I don't have a problem filling out a puppy app form. I required that myself because I wanted to try to make sure that the buyer had a fenced in area for the dog (it was a breed that would be found in the next state if it got away) and I felt better thinking that the buyer understood that. Most of my questions were about how the buyer planned to care for the dog not about their personal finances and lifestyle. If an experienced dog person came to me for a dog  and if that person had a good reputation in the breed, then no application or contract would be necessary. Still I made mistakes and sold dogs to people who weren't good owners. Had I not asked some questions and refused some prospective buyers, I suspect I would have had to take back more dogs than I did.

  


 

Rather than try to pretend that some contract is going to make people do the right thing, why not put forth the effortto talk to them on the phone before considering selling them a dog if you don't already "know" them? Most of the time, I have some idea what they're about because they were referrals.  If I see that the buyer and I are not on the same page with regard to health or temperament expectations, or some other major issue,  I simply tell them that I don't think my dogs are for them and wish them luck.

PayPal buttons on a PUPPY make me NAUSEOUS!!!!!!  I think any breeder who takes reservations before they speak to people deserves whatever they get and then some...it's just too bad that it's usually the dogs who pay the price for the greedy breeder. These are the breeders who need these asinine contracts- because they WILLINGLY engage in selling puppies to people they don't know and can't possibly trust because they just don't care!  They need to play CYA all the time because they don't care enough to put forth the effort to breed healthy, sound dogs (in both body and MIND!) and place them properly, with qualified individuals. Intstead, they prey on the well-meaning but inexperienced novices who think they're doing the right thing in buying from a breeder w/a long contract. Longer contract=better breeder, in the novice pet circles.  If there's something wrong with the dog, they blame the buyer. If it's a temperament issue, they blame the buyer's inexperience. The buyer doesn't know any better and often fades into the sunset and the breeder is never called on the carpet. They breed what they feel like will sell the fastest and sell them to the first person to click the PayPal button. <gag>  Then, they laugh all the way to the bank because they almost know there is no way a normal buyer will have any recourse when they find out their dog is dysplastic or epileptic or just plain crazy or has 5 legs. 

Can you tell I have some personal experience with these buyers? LOL  I have actually had several buyers and friends who were screwed by "good" breeders. Unreturned deposits when breedings didn't take and none were planned, puppies switched before shipping, puppies paid in full only to have breeder decide they were their "pick" and weren't for sale, hideous temperament issues, recurring bad elbows, even on replacements, etc.  One got screwed so badly, I gave them a phenomenal dog for free; the whole situation was heartbreaking. I couldn't take money from them. 
 
Anyway....my current policy is simple. If I get a feeling I need a contract, I won't sell to the person. The others get the guarantee in writing.

I never suffered from the dilusion that a contract would force any buyer into doing anything they didn't want to do. I didn't sell to every buyer who had the money, but I still got fooled and ended up taking back dogs.

Any breeder who never makes a bad sale has my respect and is a far better judge of character than I am. Rather than dealing with buyers, contracts, satisfying the requests of my breed club and all breed club when it came to selling puppies, I decided that I would just not breed anymore. The breed continues on  without my contributions. Now when I want a dog I buy one rather than trying to breed my own which IMO is the only reason to make a breeding in the first place. I now leave the breeding up to those who do it well; I didn't. The dogs turned out fine, but the hassle involved with selling them was just not worth it for me.

Blitzen wrote <snip>
"An experienced buyer knows where the bodies are buried and how to force a breeder into doing the right thing."


Boy if that ain't the truth
If memory is correct,
that just happened on this very board not too long ago

LOL, Dogz. I edited exactly that from the sentence you mentioned........"as happened here not too long ago".  

Yes,on both sides,despite how careful you are you can get burned. Thats why we have Contracts. Im not going to go so far as to vilify all Breeders with long contracts as I know some good people who truely care about their dogs but feel they should cover many potential situations in writing. They tend to be people that have other current businesses or who have had businesses in the past. I have a business license so yeah,its ran like a business(as it should be) but its 100% about the dogs and clients. I dont have every little scenario in my Contract but if I did,it would be long and that would not be a bad thing for Me or my Client.Might scare some potential people away but I wouldnt care if I felt the need to put it out there. Things written out,read,understood typically make for a better Client relationship,IMO.
Heck,my paragraph on picking up or taking possesion of pup is darn near as long as my hip/health guarantee. But that needs to be addressed,so,its in there.Breed for awhile and scenarios come up.
I do personally disagree with the overcontrolling Contract though just because I wouldnt want someone telling me what to feed.But thats the beauty of free choice:)

I haven't read your contract in many years. The only references I have ever heard to your contract were from someone who had received a replacement as promised....so I'm guessing you don't have too many problems, and I'm also guessing it's because you DO speak to them before selling and try to qualify people (I remember liking that you wouldn't accept a deposit until someone had talked to you) and not just sell to whoever whips out their checkbook. 99% of these contracts are not enforceable by law anyhow, so I wonder what the point is in some of these really long crazy ones...like the ones that remind me of Senate bills. LOL  I guess I just figure I'd rather save my energy since it probably wouldn't stand up in court anyway, and focus on mutual trust and keep my fingers crossed for good luck! 

Is this the same Julie that bred and sold Boban?

LOL. Is there a can of worms emoticon?

Hmmmm that means yes, I take it.