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by TessJ10 on 21 December 2010 - 03:12
Now that sounds like a fun seminar! What a great idea.
by malndobe on 21 December 2010 - 20:12
"Most of the other herding breeds, which were also designed to tend sheep all day"
Not true.
I should have worded it differently. I didn't mean "Most herding breeds" but "most of the other herding breeds who have tending as a job". I was using the word tending more loosely, as in a dog that tends to it's sheep all day, vs a dog who is used as a moveable fence. However, I mentioned the Belgian because it is considered a "tending" breed, the way you are using tending. There are many historical references to it being a tending dog, a movable fence, etc. and not just a "round them up and put them in the chute" type of dog. Yet the Belgian doesn't have the angle to the pasterns that the GSD does.
In the old photos of GSD's many look like they are built more like Belgians, including the angle of their pasterns. I haven't dug up an old (1800's or early 1900's) standard to see if it mentioned angle of pasterns or not, but I'd be curious to see if the angle is mentioned.
Which brings me back to something I said earlier, and the basis for my question, that I suspect it's the overall build of the GSD that requires that angle of pasterns to work in harmony with the rest of the body. Put a 22 degree pastern on a Belgian and you won't have a dog that can suddenly trot all day effortlessly with proper shock absorption, the pasterns would be to angled in relationship to the rest of the body. Put a 10 degree pastern on a GSD, and you'll see a dog who's movement is also negatively effected.
Not true.
I should have worded it differently. I didn't mean "Most herding breeds" but "most of the other herding breeds who have tending as a job". I was using the word tending more loosely, as in a dog that tends to it's sheep all day, vs a dog who is used as a moveable fence. However, I mentioned the Belgian because it is considered a "tending" breed, the way you are using tending. There are many historical references to it being a tending dog, a movable fence, etc. and not just a "round them up and put them in the chute" type of dog. Yet the Belgian doesn't have the angle to the pasterns that the GSD does.
In the old photos of GSD's many look like they are built more like Belgians, including the angle of their pasterns. I haven't dug up an old (1800's or early 1900's) standard to see if it mentioned angle of pasterns or not, but I'd be curious to see if the angle is mentioned.
Which brings me back to something I said earlier, and the basis for my question, that I suspect it's the overall build of the GSD that requires that angle of pasterns to work in harmony with the rest of the body. Put a 22 degree pastern on a Belgian and you won't have a dog that can suddenly trot all day effortlessly with proper shock absorption, the pasterns would be to angled in relationship to the rest of the body. Put a 10 degree pastern on a GSD, and you'll see a dog who's movement is also negatively effected.
by pod on 22 December 2010 - 16:12
Agreeing with you malndobe. I would add though that the modern GSD's working ability would probalby be greatly enhanced by reverting to the old type, more like the Belgians, as you say.
And I'd say that the pastern angle of the showline dog is a product of selection for extreme type of the dog as a whole. Traits such as ligament looseness and angulation tend to be inherited as a package, so if the hindquarters are overangulated, crouching and slack, the front pasterns will most likely be slack too.
And I'd say that the pastern angle of the showline dog is a product of selection for extreme type of the dog as a whole. Traits such as ligament looseness and angulation tend to be inherited as a package, so if the hindquarters are overangulated, crouching and slack, the front pasterns will most likely be slack too.
by Ibrahim on 28 December 2010 - 12:12
bump
by sonora on 29 December 2010 - 09:12
Sorry I just lost my post, will get back later
by sonora on 29 December 2010 - 11:12
Hi Ibrahim and all,
I am very sorry for I had almost completed my reply when I lost the lot.. So here I go again
This is a very good thread, thank you all for your contributions.
1) When the shoulder blade is higher than the thoracic vertibrae, it allows the muscle to anchor properly. This holds up the forehand in forward movement over a long distance.
2) The dobermann is designed for galloping (speed over a short distance) while the GSD is a trotting dog(Endurance) as such the front angles are different (Form and function)
3) Ibrahim, the lines on the GSD is not quite correct. They should run through the center line of the shoulder blade and through the center line, through the middle of the upper arm. You will now find the point of intersection, on top of the humerus, just below where the shoulder joint is. Thus showing the correct angle of approx. 90 degrees.
4) In forward movement, the upper arm will not be in line with the shoulder blade and the fore leg, but will swing like a pendulum approximately 45 degrees from its standing position to 90 degrees from the horizontal (perpendicular) position
The center line through the shoulder blade is parallel to the foreleg at the point of full extention. The upper arm connects both the shoulder blade and the fore leg, at the elbow.
I hope I've explained it clearly.
I am very sorry for I had almost completed my reply when I lost the lot.. So here I go again
This is a very good thread, thank you all for your contributions.
1) When the shoulder blade is higher than the thoracic vertibrae, it allows the muscle to anchor properly. This holds up the forehand in forward movement over a long distance.
2) The dobermann is designed for galloping (speed over a short distance) while the GSD is a trotting dog(Endurance) as such the front angles are different (Form and function)
3) Ibrahim, the lines on the GSD is not quite correct. They should run through the center line of the shoulder blade and through the center line, through the middle of the upper arm. You will now find the point of intersection, on top of the humerus, just below where the shoulder joint is. Thus showing the correct angle of approx. 90 degrees.
4) In forward movement, the upper arm will not be in line with the shoulder blade and the fore leg, but will swing like a pendulum approximately 45 degrees from its standing position to 90 degrees from the horizontal (perpendicular) position
The center line through the shoulder blade is parallel to the foreleg at the point of full extention. The upper arm connects both the shoulder blade and the fore leg, at the elbow.
I hope I've explained it clearly.
by Ibrahim on 29 December 2010 - 12:12
Yes Sonora what you explained above is clear and made the picture much brighter, here are two figures which show two methods for measuring shoulder angle of a well angled GSD, the first picture also symbolizes what you explained about positioning and relations between front components during movement.
by Rik on 29 December 2010 - 16:12
Ibrahim, good diagrams you came up with. Haven't seen these before.
many thanks to sonora and others for sharing knowledge.
Rik
many thanks to sonora and others for sharing knowledge.
Rik
by BlackthornGSD on 29 December 2010 - 21:12
One reason you see over-angulated pasterns is because in breeding for extreme sidegait and lots of front and rear angulation, you're actually selecting for longer bones all around, and also, sometimes, for looser joints/ligamentation. Combine long bones with loose ligamentation, and you get "downed" pasterns, wobbly hocks, etc.
by sonora on 30 December 2010 - 06:12
Hi Ibrahim,
The pictures are fantastic , it shows very clearly ,for all to see.
Rik you are most wellcome.
The pictures are fantastic , it shows very clearly ,for all to see.
Rik you are most wellcome.
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