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by Myracle on 09 August 2010 - 06:08
There's something to be said for a decoy/helper who is cooperative enough to just drop the sleeve when the dog breaks and runs in for an early bite.
by Diane Jessup on 09 August 2010 - 06:08
A couple other quick things thanI am off to bed...
As far as "quick" training for off leash heeling, I gotta tell you, if you have a big old husky, or some other tough old guy, which do you really think will work quicker? "I will jerk you back" or "we ain't going over to that great smelling post until the leash is loose"?
There are alot of physically tough, mentally turned off dogs out there. They have learned to just ignore the leash corrections and yelling. And, they just go on doing what they want, and getting jerked and yelled at. Their owners say "Oh! He is SO TOUGH!" and yeah, he's learned to cope with the corrections. But no matter HOW "tough" a dog is, they can't fight you if you don't fight them.
Read that again. They can't fight you if you don't fight them.
Sit back, relax. If Nanook wants to go (and he does) he WILL figure out, and quickly, that there is only one way to get there. What causes it to fail for many folks is the same thing that causes any kind of training to fail - inconsistancy or - the big one - the correction is not worth the valueof what he wants.
This is the beauty of positive. The bigger and "tougher" the dog, the better it works. Because you aren't fighting them. Those so called "tough dogs" that their oh so proud owners "complain" about on the schutzhund field? The ones that "can;t be controlled"?
IF a dog is really all that "much", then that dog WILL do whatever it takes to get to the decoy - including offering a behavior IF that is what he has been taught. But alas, I've seen quite a few people who would rather show off their "tough" dog and bad mouth dogs which have been lucky enough to be trained by someone who harnessed REAL drive. Toughness without control is useless, v. Stephanitz knew that. So why anyone would be "impressed" by a dog who can't "learn to earn" is beyond me! (Though it says much more about the trainer than the dog; a dog can't help who owns it)
As far as "quick" training for off leash heeling, I gotta tell you, if you have a big old husky, or some other tough old guy, which do you really think will work quicker? "I will jerk you back" or "we ain't going over to that great smelling post until the leash is loose"?
There are alot of physically tough, mentally turned off dogs out there. They have learned to just ignore the leash corrections and yelling. And, they just go on doing what they want, and getting jerked and yelled at. Their owners say "Oh! He is SO TOUGH!" and yeah, he's learned to cope with the corrections. But no matter HOW "tough" a dog is, they can't fight you if you don't fight them.
Read that again. They can't fight you if you don't fight them.
Sit back, relax. If Nanook wants to go (and he does) he WILL figure out, and quickly, that there is only one way to get there. What causes it to fail for many folks is the same thing that causes any kind of training to fail - inconsistancy or - the big one - the correction is not worth the valueof what he wants.
This is the beauty of positive. The bigger and "tougher" the dog, the better it works. Because you aren't fighting them. Those so called "tough dogs" that their oh so proud owners "complain" about on the schutzhund field? The ones that "can;t be controlled"?
IF a dog is really all that "much", then that dog WILL do whatever it takes to get to the decoy - including offering a behavior IF that is what he has been taught. But alas, I've seen quite a few people who would rather show off their "tough" dog and bad mouth dogs which have been lucky enough to be trained by someone who harnessed REAL drive. Toughness without control is useless, v. Stephanitz knew that. So why anyone would be "impressed" by a dog who can't "learn to earn" is beyond me! (Though it says much more about the trainer than the dog; a dog can't help who owns it)
by Diane Jessup on 09 August 2010 - 06:08
I'm not sure where the idea is that we're standing there holding a cookie over the dog's head.
The food is never visable when I train my dog with food. Yes, obviously, the dog knows its present [i can't turn her nose off], but its behind my back. She doesn't get anything from staring at the location of the food [although we did have a war for awhile with coming to heel from the recall. she magically learned she could *bump* food out of the bag on her way around, lol.]
Are you talking about where Doberdoodle and I were talking about teaching sit by luring? I mentioned the food method because *most* people who use luring will hold food in their hand and then bring it to the dog's nose, and up, causing the dogs rear end to go down. It's a common practice. Nothing wrong with it at all, and no harm in doing it a few times at the start, but to continue it means the dog is not doing the behavior themselves. They are just mindlessly following the hand.
I put the food behind my back, as well, when starting attention work. Yup, they know it is there. Do you teach her to ignore toys and VISIBLE food in your hand while working on attention? This is an important step - teaching the dog that you are NOT hiding things from her (helps to stop crabbing and other behaviors done by dogs looking for a hidden toy). Is she able to heel with a toy readily visible in either hand?
The food is never visable when I train my dog with food. Yes, obviously, the dog knows its present [i can't turn her nose off], but its behind my back. She doesn't get anything from staring at the location of the food [although we did have a war for awhile with coming to heel from the recall. she magically learned she could *bump* food out of the bag on her way around, lol.]
Are you talking about where Doberdoodle and I were talking about teaching sit by luring? I mentioned the food method because *most* people who use luring will hold food in their hand and then bring it to the dog's nose, and up, causing the dogs rear end to go down. It's a common practice. Nothing wrong with it at all, and no harm in doing it a few times at the start, but to continue it means the dog is not doing the behavior themselves. They are just mindlessly following the hand.
I put the food behind my back, as well, when starting attention work. Yup, they know it is there. Do you teach her to ignore toys and VISIBLE food in your hand while working on attention? This is an important step - teaching the dog that you are NOT hiding things from her (helps to stop crabbing and other behaviors done by dogs looking for a hidden toy). Is she able to heel with a toy readily visible in either hand?
by Myracle on 09 August 2010 - 06:08
Yeah, I should have addressed that comment.
It was directed at the idea that the behavior is being lured and not offered, posed by DoberDoodle.
When the current silly dog was a puppy, we played the "watch" game.
I held food, a toy, etc in my hand, with my arm extended all the way out. She second she looked away from the toy and at my face, she magically won whatever was in my hand. She learned rather quickly [oh, and hour or so] that looking away from whatever she wanted, and to my face, was the likeliest way to get what she wanted.
Every so often, we've just had an "off" day of training, and its necessary to bring the toy visibly into play to bring her drive back up just so we can end on a positive note.
Tonite we learned "spin". Random for-fun contest on another dog forum [train a new behavior in a week]. Started by luring, the first few times around. After that, the hand signal mimicking the lure. Now the verbal command is sufficient. Took about an hour from lure to verbal command.
*shrug*
I thought this was supposed to "take longer", lol.
Frankly, had I ever bothered to teach her targeting, the lure wouldn't have even been necessary.
[I should probably get around to doing targeting work at some point.]
It was directed at the idea that the behavior is being lured and not offered, posed by DoberDoodle.
When the current silly dog was a puppy, we played the "watch" game.
I held food, a toy, etc in my hand, with my arm extended all the way out. She second she looked away from the toy and at my face, she magically won whatever was in my hand. She learned rather quickly [oh, and hour or so] that looking away from whatever she wanted, and to my face, was the likeliest way to get what she wanted.
Every so often, we've just had an "off" day of training, and its necessary to bring the toy visibly into play to bring her drive back up just so we can end on a positive note.
Tonite we learned "spin". Random for-fun contest on another dog forum [train a new behavior in a week]. Started by luring, the first few times around. After that, the hand signal mimicking the lure. Now the verbal command is sufficient. Took about an hour from lure to verbal command.
*shrug*
I thought this was supposed to "take longer", lol.
Frankly, had I ever bothered to teach her targeting, the lure wouldn't have even been necessary.
[I should probably get around to doing targeting work at some point.]
by Myracle on 09 August 2010 - 07:08
Damn. An actual training thread lasted longer than two pages.
by Ruger1 on 09 August 2010 - 16:08
Wow ..this is a great thread...I have a super busy day today .I am going to check in again later...I am reading all the posts and they are very informative .....Ruger1
by Sheesh on 09 August 2010 - 20:08
Ruger1,
Where are you located?
Theresa
by sueincc on 09 August 2010 - 21:08
Shade I agree with you 100% and I am as sick of those who assume my dog must be unhappy or less happy because I train with corrections as I am sick of those who say a dog trained 100% motivationally couldn't possibly be working to capacity 100% of the time.
Dog training is not one-size-fits all, what's best for one team is not always best for another. Anyone who tries to tell you different, who tries to tell you their way is the only way, is talking out of their ass and is full of shit. I can't stand cults, and I can't stand relgious zealots either.
Ruger1: As I'm sure you are aware, you can't learn how to train dogs over the internet. My suggestion is that you go to the schutzhund club WITHOUT your dog and watch - a lot. The best way to learn is to go and observe. Then once you get a feel for what is going on, ask questions about what you don't understand.
Dog training is not one-size-fits all, what's best for one team is not always best for another. Anyone who tries to tell you different, who tries to tell you their way is the only way, is talking out of their ass and is full of shit. I can't stand cults, and I can't stand relgious zealots either.
Ruger1: As I'm sure you are aware, you can't learn how to train dogs over the internet. My suggestion is that you go to the schutzhund club WITHOUT your dog and watch - a lot. The best way to learn is to go and observe. Then once you get a feel for what is going on, ask questions about what you don't understand.
by Diane Jessup on 09 August 2010 - 21:08
I know! Three pages without name calling (well, almost) and trolls popping in! There is hope for the board! : )
Let me put an open question out there: Around the PNW there are a few trainers who just plain like to whip up on their dog. It brings pleasure to them, or it wouldn't be their hobby. It obviously fulfills something they need. Their dogs may (or may not) work well, but the subtle signs of stress are there. Lip licking, yawning, etc.
I'm not talking about something that can be reported to the humane society, I'm just talking about bad training, bad timing, or unfair corrections, etc. Whatever it is that is causing the animal stress. (Yes, an animal can learn, as can people, without stress).
How do you guys feel when you witness this?
I happen to think that it is helpful for a discussion like this to take place. Thanks. Off to run dogs, be back in a while! : )
Let me put an open question out there: Around the PNW there are a few trainers who just plain like to whip up on their dog. It brings pleasure to them, or it wouldn't be their hobby. It obviously fulfills something they need. Their dogs may (or may not) work well, but the subtle signs of stress are there. Lip licking, yawning, etc.
I'm not talking about something that can be reported to the humane society, I'm just talking about bad training, bad timing, or unfair corrections, etc. Whatever it is that is causing the animal stress. (Yes, an animal can learn, as can people, without stress).
How do you guys feel when you witness this?
I happen to think that it is helpful for a discussion like this to take place. Thanks. Off to run dogs, be back in a while! : )
by sueincc on 09 August 2010 - 21:08
I am not sure what you mean by "whip up" a dog, since no one I know or have ever seen "whips" their dogs to train them.
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