Breeding Untitled Female....???? - Page 5

Jenni:

Quote:  And yes, it's a sport

Actually The "sport" is part of Schutzhund training not  the other way around.

 

"Here comes the excuse train rolling in, we hear these all the time: "I don't have time/club is too far" Then why do you have time to breed? I have two kids and a full time job. Right now I'm blessed with a trainer only 20 minutes away, but in my past driving over an hour was the norm and I've driven up to three hours each way to train."

I'm not sure if that comment is directed towards me, but when did I say I don't have time to train? It's not that I don't have time to train....I train, and I train often, all of my dogs.  The only SchH clubs I know of meet when I'm at work (I work afternoons into late night.  And a couple of the clubs were  too full to have anymore people.  These are all of the ones that I'm aware of within a few hours.  I have time to train, breed Huskies, help other people train their dogs or help their dogs overcome behavior problems, I don't breed GSDs. though.

To anyone though........I often question the whole titled dogs only thing in one way.  I often see breeders just buy a good stock of titled dogs, and breed them.  They trained absolutely none of themselves, same goes for big shot trainers who buy dogs already titled, and then trial them again and again when they didn't start them as a puppy themselves. But for the ones that are just buying titled dogs and breeding them...  Is that seen as okay? I mean they bred titled dogs......but they put no work into the dogs at all.   I'll also see breeders that everyone on this board says is reputable, but yet they're breeding dogs who only have hip x rays done.  No one questions them though, and I'm talking about well known kennels, that many on this board seem to have respect for.  I will not mention their names though.  I've seen some who didn't even have hip x rays at that.

 Bob- you're quoting out of context. Include the rest of it.

GSDguy...lots of people breed titled dogs. Especially imports. One of the people I respect most in dogs imports dogs titled. Does this make him a lazy breeder? I think not, when you consider how many years he spent in the sport before "retiring" from it to solely focus on breeding.

Is a dog better genetically because the owner put the work into it him/herself? I think that has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard, and I hear it all the time. Great- just what I want- a pup out of a dog the owner/trainer worked SO HARD on titling that they just HAD to breed it.........even though the dog may suck. I see A LOT of that- people get so into their own dog and their work and are so proud of themselves that they forget what the dog really is/was and now that the dog is titled, it's breedworthy. <puke>  I can honestly say I'd rather have a pup from a dog that wasn't HOT in terms of objectivity; often, the breeders who have the money to buy the good, titled dogs, also are more objective because they DON'T have all the time and hardwork into that particular dog and can be more honest about its shortcomings/faults because it's not so personal. 

Nope, these are general excuses that start flooding in every time this discussion comes up. I can't say I commiserate with you on club training hours, though. Just use a private trainer, it's what I've always done.

I, personally, prefer a dog I've trained from a pup, because I love the process, and I love puppy raising. Unfortunately, puppies are a risk as well but I simply cannot afford even an older puppy or young adult. Right now, gambling on puppies is all I have in my budget.

This does not mean that a breeder cannot be knowledgeable enough to know an excellent adult when they see one. If everyone in the GSD was as broke as me we'd never get high quality, outstanding dogs in this country for other breeders to benefit from.

Does every person who buys a titled dog know what they're buying/breeding? LORD, no! For the millionth time: know your breeder, know your importer, know your stud of choice, know your genetics, know what correct performance looks like, know your dogs. These are individual responsibilites. To use the fact that others misuse the system as an excuse to not follow it oneself is childish as best and dishonest at worst.

GSDguy08 you are absolutely correct.
There is supposed to be one breed standard yet there are many standards used when breeding.
It's really easy to twist and manipulate different scenarios to justify ones actions.
Intelligent and experienced people are not fooled or swayed by many of the "old hat" excuses.
In the end it's only a carnival act that makes use of smoke and mirrors.
I really do have to go now, I've spent far to much time on the computer today, I should be out working my dogs!

Peace and love to all!

"Sounds like splitting hairs or back-peddling to me.
Really simple to find out, count the number of ortsgruppen's (clubs) in Germany and compare it to the number of small towns.....I'm afraid it's not even close, just another excuse and exageration."

Believe what you'd like but I was living there with my GSD long before you decided you wanted to be a breeder I'm inclined to trust my own eyes.  Whether or not every group who is training together has formally declared themselves a club or are on someone's official list doesn't negate the fact that you see permanent training facilities everywhere.

"Why would you imply that I don't train my dogs when you know absolutely nothing about me?"

Because many of your dogs appear to have been imported already titled and by your own admission, you send them off for training.

"I have the availability of a TOP helper and the resources to have that helper come to my home to train with me privately whenever I like, and I also have the option of traveling about an hour to where he works dogs if I have the time to do so."

I'm assuming you mean Broward and you are fortunate to have a club like Miriam's and the benefit of her experience within such a realtively short drive.  Not everyone has that luxury.
 
'Unlike you I make no excuses, I look for solutions."

I don't have to make excuses...in my more than 35 years in the breed, I have bred exactly one litter...5 puppies.

"It appears that you take issue with any opinion that differes from your own, having a closed mind is a big handicap in life."

On the contrary, Andrew, you are the one who came into this thread with the unyeilding stance that there was never any reason to breed an untitled dog.  Your position is the one for which there is only black and white; not mine.  Some breeders might set their standard at ScH III for a stud dog; does that make you wrong for breeding one who is (or was at the time) a ScH II?

In all fairness, I generally agree with you that the dogs should be titled but have also seen extraordinary measures taken simply to put a title on a dog to give her the illusion of breedworthiness when she really wasn't.  Titles, by themselves are not the be-all and end all you suggest.

Jagenstadt,

I happen to agree with you on everything you said, but what I was saying is that some breeders prefer to breed before titling to see IF bitch could produce not WHAT the bitch can produce.  I'm talking high end pedigrees full of titles that pretty much guarantee the bitch can do the work but if she cannot contribute her fine assets to the breed and you are not yourself the trainer etc. I can see the necessity finding this out first because you can sell that first litter with spay/neuter contracts and not waste all the time and money involved in getting those titles on a bitch that cannot be bred or turns out to have some undesirable trait she passes on.  There, I think I clarified my statement. 

Deb

Malndobe,
                 It is interesting reading your commits, they are always very good. I
find my self going back and reading them 2 and 3 times. You bring things
into focus from 3 points of view without emotional baggage. You are a breeder
with success, a competitor, and a Judge of FR Ring sport. I know you are very
busy, but I thank you for your intermittent commentary.

The French and Belgium bred bitches who were a little on the crazy side,
to very calm males, for years. But after a while the breed was getting to spun. So they did two things,
one group went outside the breed secretly and found males that were cross bred
and the other group just reversed the process by going to a softer female to a hard
male. This is found in nature as well. The earth  reverses it's polarity every so many
millenia. May be the males will stay at home and the female goes to work now.  I have
two outstanding females and it is a kick to work them. They are workaholics, with
very balanced drives. Very consistent, every day they up ready to go.

I kinda collect old schutzhund footage and the one thing that strikes me is the change and evolution of the test as time clicks forward. I can guarantee that at least half of the dogs titled and trained to todays Schutzhund would never make it not thru the temperament testing or the physical testing and as time marched forward and the breed (as bred) changed the test got weaker and weaker, less and less pressure less physical requirements to the point that parts of the test that really put any pressure on the dog were taken out like the vertical wall, Palisades,real courage tests attack on handler, sticks...ect to the point that many lines of dogs can,t do the physical requirements once a base line for the dog breed suitability test.(original purpose) to a now all prey based sceniero.

It,s up to the breeder to breed dogs that fit the standard of a working dog not follow it like a blind leading the blind. If you ask me whats more important to the breed titles or abaility I,ll take abality over paper any time. 

All dogs  need tested.   

 Bob, that's exactly what I was saying in the paragraph you quoted me from.