What I love and hate about Sch........ - Page 5

Sue, ¶ You are absolutely correct. Kitkat IS trying revise history, and that should not be allowed to pass. No need to do more than you have: provide the link to one of Kitkat's most egregious bids for attention to her and the misery of her life. Those who remember know that she cruelly forced her dog to suffer, while, from HER posts, crying pitiously all day, then claimed she had the drugs to PTS, but was refusing to end the dog's suffering (with a controllled substance she claimed her vet gave her) and allowed the dog to die in agony at her feet...while Kitkat sat at her computer in one of her usual attempts to get attention from this board and involve us in her miserable existence. And, of course, she got our attention. It also led to the outting of her UNLICENSED vet, among other things. Kitkat, whatever you had done between then and now, whether medication or "hiatus" worked. Go back to it. ¶Sorry to have become part of the ot from this thread, but Kitkat's offensive blanket statement and martyr-playing attempt to revise history had to be addressed. Let's try to avoid it further, as Happyday was dead on in her assessment of the bids for attention, AND avoid a thread devoted to Kitkat, as well.

Misery loves company!

Bark and Hold writes: "I wish people would "master" or "V score" all three phases of a schutzhund routine, at a high level trial, and then talk of how boring, stagnant, and contrived it is. Not so easy to do, is it?"

EXACTLY!  What a great comment.
 
sueincc writes: "It is the same thing with how people complain about the schtuzhund obedience being a pattern, but I and nobody I know train that pattern. We practice it a couple times before a trial, but that's not how we train our dogs."

More truth.  In training you're never doing that pattern over and over again.  But in a trial everyone must be judged to the same standard so the pattern is the same for every competitor in that trial.  GARD, what other way would you do it in order to judge everyone the same in obedience?

Bark and hold, probably none of the other dogsports have that type of bitework besides SCH what I know of, if they did it also would be SCH I suppose. Yes, I think it´s a bit boring, a few bites presented the same way waist heigt, if the hard sleeve and drive makes it hard I´m not so sure about, considering the fact there are many different breeds with SCH-titles, while many other dogsports are almost only working GSDs and mals. Of course it´s not easy to V-score, but high points isn´t necessarily an awesome dog is it, but that may be true for many sports. It would be fun thou if SCH was made a bit harder and more practical, so a SCH3 would be a title that isn´t for every dog to obtain. I´m not so sure what benefit there is to emphasis a full and calm grip so much, as long as the dog bites good and hard is it important that it also is calm on the grip? I´m not sure about the rules, but does a dog that wants to fight the helper and shake and growls a bit on the bite get penalized for this compared to a dog that have full and calm grip but just hangs onto the sleeve?

Jennie¶, Some judges do like to see a dog that fights on the sleeve, as opposed to merely "hanging there." A dog can have a calm, full hard grip AND fight on the sleeve--the two are not mutually exclusive. Judges may penalize for vocalizing on the sleeve, as it is sometimes/often a result of nerves. Some breeds, however, are known for vocalizing and it may have nothing to do with weak nerves.

The "full and calm" grip is a testament to the dogs nerves. Typically, growling and shaking is "unsureness". and please do not misunderstand me, I train schutzhund in all different types of environments with different equipment (hidden sleeves, bite suits, etc...) People seem to forget that schutzhund is first and foremost a "breed requisite"... That is why the full calm grip under pressure says so much. I do not imply that a schutzhund trained protection dog is ready for the street, but if he has a good temperament as displayed through the sport, then he will probably make a good street dog with the proper training (Hidden sleeves, guarding an unthreatening subject, etc...) I have seen certified police dogs get run off schutzhund fields with a helper running at them with a stick and hard sleeve... You know why? Sometimes it is the dog, but more often than not, they dog has NEVER seen this picture. Ultimately, I am saying that people should not dismiss the sport because a dog isn't jumping and biting through something that looks like a window, or whatever gimmick some people try to sell you with. The sport is a breed requisite... a test of the dog, its temperament, etc...

When doing the BARK/HOLD is the dog penalized or disqualified if it goes for the sleeve anytime BEFORE the command is given? If a dog makes contact with Agitator, such as jumping up and making contact with paws, on sleeve  is that a disqualification? Have you ever seen this? Just curious as I do not know.
Dawn

It's  point deductions for molesting and also for dirty dogs.  The dog is never to grip during the hold & bark.  The dog is also not commanded at all during this exercize except when he is called out of the blind.  The next exercize, when  the helper attempts to flee, the dog arrests him, there is no signal/command  from the handler to the dog to arrest the helper.

Dawn
Yes, the Dog is deducted points if it so much as touches the Sleeve or the helper, It is supposed to Bark strongly consistently without moving around it should stay in one spot, when its handler is called over the Dog should not look round but keep barking and Hold
The signal is given to the handler to recall his dog which must sit at his or her side on the first command from is handler
If the handler has to call the Dog twice it is taken points off again, If it has to be called three times the exercise is terminated the pair are out
Just the same as when the Dog has hold of the sleeve say for instance on the Escape if it is called three times to loose the sleeve and does not it is out
Steve1

And the point to this is that it's a HOLD and bark.  The dog is to HOLD the bad guy.  So if the bad guy doesn't move the dog may not touch him.  It's only when the bad guy moves, i.e. raises his arm and his whip as though to strike the dog and escape, that the dog must, without command, make the decision to HOLD him.