Protective trait in temprament - Page 5

Rexy before you agree with Vikram ,please go and read his decription of socially agressive dog. what you are saying in agreement with Vikram are two different things.He is saying a social agressive dog does not need trigger stimulus for his agression.when you are talking about your dog you are saying when stranger tries to pet he bites that is trigger stimulus your dog is reacting to his space being invaded.


Vikram you can not describe a unsatble dog and then say it is a different topic.have a nice one.

 First off - I feel social aggression is too intense a quality to be useful in competition as these dogs have inborn motivations to
aggression . They do not need any particular trigger stimulus for aggression . They can be trained to tolerate stangers , but they would never accept a stranger , unless of course , the stranger is perceived as integrated into the dog's pack or the stranger subdues the dog by force . This is not so say that they are unpredictable or unstable . Socially aggressive dogs are solid dogs with strong nerves . I could go on theorizing on the subject but try and understand that a Socially Aggressive dog is extremely hard and dogs I have mentioned earlier have taken their handlers to hospitals. Many people who are reading this will not speak but they have dogs Like i'm describing. YET THEY ARE NOT CATEGORIZED AS UNSTABLE DOGS. Social Aggression is a purely pack phenomenon. Its is very much needed for the pack to survive. I'm not trying to give an impression of a deranged dog here.

cheers

 people who have done beyond the sport would know the kind of dog I'm talking about

regards

Ok so according to Vikram
Soccial aggression :


a dog that will ingage just because somebody is not a part of the pack with no stimulation what so ever...
A dog that the handler has hard time handling no matter how experienced you are because the dog just has the F/U attitude

a dog that will bite because he/she decides that this is a good time and well .. let's bite.

Vikram.. this is what I understand from your post.. I am translating your thoughts right?


I like the quiet oppositte animal.
Dog that will engage when told to even if there is no stimulation, given, passive attack (that is what I call it)
A dog that is forgiving towards the handler and will NOT turn just because I trip over and fall (not calling myself clutz.. Well I am one sometimes)
A dog that will have the ability to bite when the thread given by intruder.
A dog I can take to a public place and not to worry about that comething is going to happen because he is picking times when and where to attack..

OK I am not getting what you are saying I assume..
Pack

Ok I reread couple of things..

Sosial aggresive dogs are: oportunistic dogs, hanlder agressive, can't take fair correction, Shot callers and pack leaders ... well that is badly controlled hard, civil, or just badly trained and raised  dog.. not social agression

 Since Internet has its short comings of no semantics to the syntax here is an intersting article by someone known

The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament

Dominick Donovan Copyright 1989

Introduction

There seems to be a very vague definition within our dog sport as to
exactly what constitutes strong working dog temperament. Is it the
dog who demonstrates incredible intensity in the holding? Is it the
dog who, on the courage test, runs at the helper with great speed and
strikes with tremendous power? Perhaps it is the dog who bites the
helper with an extremely hard, crushing bite. We are of the opinion
that all of these characteristics are important working dog
attributes and can be of great value in assisting us towards
achieving an excellent performance in the protection phase, but they
are not necessarily all the critical components of a strong working
dog. These are all examples of powerful instincts which are important
and necessary components of working dog temperament.

PART I. The Instincts of the Strong Working Dog

The following is a list of important instincts of the strong working
dog:

A. Prey Instinct (Booty)

B. Active Aggression

C. Reactive Aggression

D. Social Aggression

E. Pack Instinct

Let us examine each instinct more carefully.

A. Prey Instinct (Booty)

Prey instinct (booty) is the genetically inherited desire in the dog
to chase after and seize moving objects. This is the instinct most
often understood and easily read. Prey instinct is one of the two
most critical instincts necessary for excellent Schutzhund protection
work. It motivates a dog to strike the helper with speed and power,
and affords us as trainers a form of stress relief in all areas of
training (tracking, obedience, protection).

B. Active Aggression (Fighting Drive)

Active aggression is an offensive aggression commonly referred to
as "fighting drive". It is the second critical instinct for excellent
Schutzhund protection work. It is characterized by a dog which
demonstrates explosive, rhythmic barking in the out and holding phase
of the protection work. It enables the dog to be positively
stimulated into the work by compulsion.

C. Reactive Aggression (Defense/Self-Preservation)

Reactive aggression is totally different from active aggression. It
is not a critical instinct for Schutzhund training. It is
characterized by a dog with a generally protective nature and is
often linked to territoriality. Reactive aggression is commonly
referred to as sharpness. It can act as a catalyst for the other
protective drives (active aggression, booty, social aggression), and
lends versatility for practical application for such jobs as police
dog, personal protection dog, and/or guard duty.

However, reactive aggression must be delicately balanced in the dog's
temperament because it is comprised greatly of both fight and flight
instincts. Reactive aggression is only desirable if it is based on
the fighting aspect with little or no trace of flight instinct being
present.

D. Social Aggression

Social aggression is the dog's desire to establish pack hierarchy
(alpha/leader). It is also another instinct which is not critical for
Schutzhund protection training. However, it is an instinct which can
give the dog an added strength because it is not reactive aggression
(defense/self-preservation) and, therefore, it does not have

 D. Social Aggression

Social aggression is the dog's desire to establish pack hierarchy
(alpha/leader). It is also another instinct which is not critical for
Schutzhund protection training. However, it is an instinct which can
give the dog an added strength because it is not reactive aggression
(defense/self-preservation) and, therefore, it does not have the
potential disadvantage of flight behavior. Since social aggression
has no flight counterpart, the dog does not perform under the same
level of stress as in reactive aggression.

Social aggression is characterized by a dog that demonstrates a deep
grumbling bark. This type of dog also generally expresses itself in a
very dominant manner. Social aggression is almost exclusively a male
characteristic. It can be the determining factor in a protection dog
successfully facing a life threatening situation (i.e., police dog,
personal protection dog, military dog, etc.).

As breeders/trainers, we stress a mild level of social aggression
because the potential drawback of an excessive level of social
aggression is constant struggle for authority thereby hampering
trainability.

E. Pack Instinct

Pack instinct is the genetically inherited trait in the dog to
socially interact and closely bond to its pack members (i.e.,
handler, family). Pack instinct, although not critical for Schutzhund
performance, is extremely advantageous, lending itself towards high
trainability. When in combination with social aggression, the
advantage of social aggression is utilized while still lending the
dog to a high level of trainability.

Although highly important components of excellent performance
temperament, the instincts described above are not the true
determining factors for strong temperament. Parallel to the
aesthetically beautiful house with attractive components such as a
lovely landscape, excellent interior design, and modern conveniences,
it is the inner core of the dog, much like the strong foundation on
which the house is built, that give both the dog and the house their
true strength and value.

 PART II. The Inner Core of The Strong Working Dog

The core of the strong working dog consists of these elements:

A. The Nervous System

B. Hardness

C. Irritability Threshold (Defense Threshold)

We must consider each of these in turn in order to understand how
they supply and maintain the essential foundation for strength in the
working dog.

A. The Nervous System

The nervous system is one of the two most critical components in the
core of a truly strong working dog. It is the dog's ability to
generally accept all aspects of its environment without exhibiting
signs of nervousness, fear, or flight.

The general characteristics of a dog with a poor nervous system
include the dog that shows signs of nervousness when exposed to loud
sounds (i.e., gunfire, thunderstorms, etc.), and/or the dog which
shows nervousness or fear upon entering a strange environment (i.e.,
after shipping, at a strange training field, in a crowded room,
etc.). By contrast, the dog with a sound nervous system will accept
all such and any other changes in its environment without negative
effect.

B. Hardness

Hardness is the dog's ability to recuperate from a disagreeable
experience. Although the least critical of the three core traits,
hardness is still a very desirable trait. Hardness allows the trainer
to use the advantages of compulsion for precise competitive training
without hindering the natural working spirit of the dog.

C. Irritability Threshold (Defense Threshold)

The irritability threshold is the amount of psychological stress (not
physical stress) the dog can withstand while in the state of reactive
aggression (defense) before exhibiting signs of conflict or flight
behavior.

Conflict is the crossover stage between fight and flight behavior.
The ordinary signs of conflict include:

Raising of hackles
Low tail carriage
Obvious high pitch tone of bark indicating stress
Any signs of withdrawal or retreat on the part of the dog
Irritability threshold is the most critical and least understood
aspects of the dog's temperament. It is very difficult to evaluate a
dog's threshold and normally it requires a skilled eye to make the
correct evaluation. For a correct evaluation, the dog's reactive
aggression (defense) must be completely isolated, that is, no other
instincts may be allowed to come into action (i.e., active
aggression, prey).

In order to correctly evaluate the irritability threshold, the
following test must be performed in the very specific manner outlined.

 PART III. The Test For Determining The Irritability Threshold In The
Working Dog

The following steps should be taken to evaluate the dog's
irritability threshold.

A. The dog shall be taken to an area totally unfamiliar to him. He
should be tied to a sturdy object (tree, etc.) with a solid equipment
that can withstand the dog's lunges and cause the dog no injury
(i.e., chain, leather collar).

B. The dog shall be left alone in the test area for a minimum of
fifteen minutes after which a strange helper shall test the dog in
the following specific manner.

C. The helper shall wear no protective equipment as this would give
false reading of the defense threshold because the dog's other
instincts (i.e., active aggression, prey) have been conditioned upon
the visual sighting of the equipment.

D. The helper shall walk slowly and directly towards the dog making
and keeping direct eye contact with the dog. The object is to
psychologically present a challenge to the dog without making any
movements other than the direct frontal approach toward the dog. It
is critical that the helper make no other movement (especially quick)
of his arms or any other parts of his body since this would likely
bring other instincts into drive. The helper must make no attacking
or retreating gestures at all, but only proceed in a slow, steady
approach directly towards the dog, keeping eye contact and ignoring
the dog's behavior.

E. The object of the test is to evaluate the dog's determination in
his defense instinct when it is not being reinforced. As the helper
gets closer to the dog, he will probably notice some signs of
conflict (stress) in the dog's behavior (i.e., raising hackles, high
pitched bark, retreat).

F. The dog which shows little or no signs of conflict throughout the
test during the helper's slow, deliberate approach is the dog with a
strong threshold.

It should be remembered, however, that very few dogs show absolutely
no signs of stress when a test of this nature is correctly applied.
Most dogs fall somewhere between the ideal and terrible, and the
helper must be careful never to push the dog completely into flight
since this would be detrimental to training goals.

CONCLUSION

Overall, remember that instincts are a very important aspect of the
dog's character, but only when supported by a strong inner core.

From our experience as breeders and trainers, we have painstakingly
discovered that it is the deep inner core of the dog which holds the
most genetic as well as training value.

If in breeding a compromise must be made (as often it must since
there are few perfect dogs), far better that one should compromise on
the instincts as opposed to the core of the dog. Like the house with
an excellent foundation, it can be easily redecorated and made "like
new", so too, the dog with an excellent core can be genetically
enhanced by breeding to more highly instinct animals, provided they
also have a good core, thereby producing versatile, all around strong
working dogs

__._,_.___

Vikram,
Please tell me about your dogs and your training.  You are quoting Dominic Donovan, do you know him or anything about him? 

Jim