What is worth more $$$$$$ - Page 5

Eisen faust-

What if you could have a sch3 and a PPD all in one and yes the training is done correctly how much would someone pay for this? This would be a working line dog. Considering  I inquired a year or so ago about a bitch that was almost 6 years old with an IPO3 I fell completely in love with that had no PP training; purely trained as a high level competition dog with an exceptional pedigree for breeding she was sold for $16,000.  Her videos showed she was civil and looked like she meant business BUT again we did not see any "real" work just sport video.  Was she worth the money???  Not to me.  She was a bit too old for me to invest that kind of cash.  If you wanted to breed her you'd of had to do it right away and that was probably the only litter you'd be getting.  Not to mention the time you'd invest to transition to PPD and for a 6 yr old dog IMO was not worth it.  Had she been 3-4 yrs....maybe. I'd say for a SCH 3 AND PPD; true PPD not some bs....likely to go for $15,000 IMO. The trouble is that a lot of middle class or upper middle class folks that may have a serious need for this type of dog likely have a family to support and don't have that type of cash on hand to buy an expensive dog.  It's not like you can go finance it, get some rebates to lower your payment and get 2.9% financing. lol

animules, Of course you can have a Sch3 who does personal protection. The dog itself determines this Zidane would not hesitate to eat someone if needed  would not stop him because he was trained as a sport dog. The real dog stuff is overblown by some, my dog is a real dog and also a sport dog it varies by the dog's temperament.As far as value dollar wise does not make much sense to me if breeding pick a good producing dog first some titled dogs are sorry in this arena and some PPD are sorry as well for breeding. Breeding dogs tend to be more pricey because they are proven producers but if you are not a kennel why bother. Get the dog that fits your needs you might save some bucks. I had a 75.00 dollar German Shepherd  years and years  ago purchased out of a backyard  litter who lived till he was over 17 years of age perfect health and would eat the south end of a north bound cow..super protection dog ...what does the commerical say with Matercard...Priceless!

Marlene

Marlene,  I do think you can have both in one dog too.  My point was not too many people have access to both types of training.  And many don't feel the need to have both types of training.  I would do so with two of mine IF I had the time and a GOOD PP trainer close by.   I am smart enough about my dogs to know the other two do not have what it would take for formalized PP training, they are both very good deterents though.

 

Many that want  a PPD are much higher income and think nothing of dropping the $30 - $75 thousand (or more) some PPD's are advertised for.    That is well out of what I would consider but I don't make the multi millions a year some of those people do.  It's a matter of prespective for some people.  They drop more for a dinner out then many of us consider a reasonable price for a dog, any dog.  The prespective being the $75K dog MUST be better then the $30K dog.  And besides, my friends spent $65K for their PPD, I need a "better" one.

ahh, another thread on hypotheticals on the interent.

a "true" ppd dog is less real to me than a sch III dog.  There is no criteria, no outside judging, there is no standard.  I've come across far more Sch III titled dogs that I'd give massive amounts of money for if I had it, than almost all the claimed PPD dogs I've seen

For all the Sch dogs that are "real"  test the dog in a strange place, find out its true worth.  For all the PPD dogs that are real, since Sch is so easy and any dog can do it since it isn't real work, then shut the fuck up and at least get a sch I title.  Should be no problem, that or get your dog patrol dog certified, something other than a PPD distinction that, lets face it, anyone can give to any dog.

Editing the post to actually answer the question...
 
If I was buying a 2-3 year old male I would have the possibility to do both in mind.  Either way I'd want to see the dog work or at least several videos.  I've seen some people who discredit the "sport" and claim they do PPD and, well...not that impressed.  If it's PPD, if I'm spending any significant amount of money I want to see a PSA or SDA title or at least enough of the dog work to know he is READY to title or close to it. 
 
If it's a lower price, I want to see in his work that he is capable but will not pay a ton of money for an untitled dog either way.
 
If it's a PDK9, again I'd need to see him work...I would never take the claim or assertion by word...I've seen shit PDK9's just as I've seen shit SchH dogs.
 
If it's a SchH dog I'd have to see that he has the nerve, power and aggression in his work to see or get a good idea he has the ability to "cross over".
 
To me whatever dog I get I'd want to title.  Not sure If I'll ever have the time to do both on one dog again but it sure as hell was fun and a great feeling of accomplishment. 
 
I don't want to see a dog who can't do one so is doing the other, not that they are bad dogs...just not good enough for me.
 
BUT with that said....I personally don't have the NEED for a personal protection dog...aside from the occasional death threats from the convicts where I work I live a pretty safe life in a small town.  To me, I just want a great dog at the end of my leash, even when doing PPD/PSA is just a fun sport to me.

 

I say one who has the ability to do both...have your cake and eat it too. 

A good dog CAN do both!!

 

Animules,  Send me some of those people willing to pay 65,000 for a PPD and I can build a new kennel and house real quick! LOL We sell PPD dogs with obedience that might not make it in the sport for one reason or the other for 2,500 to 3,500 depending on the dog with hips done so I am losing money for sure.  I have seen the HarrisonK9 type kennels to me that is crooked and dishonest to market like that but on the other hand if someone is foolish enought to throw money away like that without looking around then it is free enterprise working I guess. 

Yes ZDog you are right PPD are much easier to train than Schutzhund for sure but most not all but the majority of PPD trainers have never titled a dog because of the skill involved. We had a K9 guy come from New jersey to get a puppy y  called himself a Master Trainer was in charge of his  Police division and when he saw a Schutzhund routine in practice said himself well that is out of my league there is no way I could do that.  The control issue with Schutzhund is what separates more than anything and that control is not as easy as it looks with the sport dogs especially when they are hard dogs by temperament.  I wish I lived closer to the Hamptons!  75,000 for a PPD and I got my old one now deceased for 75.00 amazing the inflation.

Marlene

any ppd dog worth a crap better have some damn good control.  Maybe not precision OB, but enough to pass a trial.  If a dog doesn't have at least that, i wouldn't pay any more than I would for any green dog, assuming everything else was good

 

good dogs can do both.  I guess overall, all things being equal if the dog has shown me it has nerve, strength and temperment i'd pay the same for either dog.  But I don't really seek out breeders that give self appointed titles or certifications.  Gotta be something more than that.

Alabama,

I dissagree with "Yes ZDog you are right PPD are much easier to train than Schutzhund for sure but most not all but the majority of PPD trainers have never titled a dog because of the skill involved" This is the problem with the sch / show / working / PPD debate. Many people do not see the talents or worth in each. I know many trainers who have trained in sch and now only do PPD/PSA because of the ability and need to train under different scenarios.

 Is sch easier than PPD training NO, Is PPd training easier than Sch NO. they both have their issues that makes training both fun and difficult.

Is it easier for a dog to be trained to run six blinds or to search a building. Is it easier for a sch dog to bite on escape on a sleeve, or is it easier for a dog to bite on the escape on hidden equipment.

Is it easier for a PPD to out under heavy pressure, or is it easier to get a sch dog to out.

Is it easier for a dog to do precise OB on a field, or is it easier for a PPD/PSD to do obedience under heavy distractions.

My point is that I believe both dogs are valuable because they are both trained well and do well at what they are trained at.

Remember the post was about both dogs being trained by quality trainers not good vs bad trainers.

Eisenfaust, so let's say that I want to buy one of your trained PPD's... how do I know I'm going to get "the real deal"? At least at a SchH trial, the dog will have to demonstrate proficiency and be scored by a trained judge. With PPD's there is no certification process. And yes, clearly there are SchH dogs that are sold with "paper titles" but this is easy enough to expose... just take the dog to a trial and it will be obvious whether the dog knows the exercises or not. So what's the plan for validating the training of a PPD? Not trying to be pissy, BTW. Just curious. Yvette

Yvette,

When I sell a PPD to a client I show them all that the dog will do. Just like a sch trial I show them the protection work , i show them the obedience. I deliver most of my dogs to the clients home and they get a couple of days with the dog and myself. We set up scenarios that are specific for the needs of the client. I also show them how stable and family friendly the dogs are. I also show them video of the dog and other videos of past dogs I have placed in homes.

This also may sound like a sales pitch but, I consider myself a very honest person both in my perfession, and in my personal life. I was taught as a child by my parents that "An honest days work for an honest days pay".  

Also I try an educate my clients even before they commit to me for a dog. I tell them the good and bad, the potential scamms out their and I answer any other questions they have. I will tell anyone purchasing a sch dog or a PPD that they must have atleast a basic understanding of what they are looking for and what it should look like.

Thanks Yvette, and I hope I answered your question. Dennis, Eisen Faust Kennels,