Handler Agression - Page 5

 4-5th handler for the dog

my guess would be all for the same reason.  no one ever told the dog when it was young what was allowed and what wasnt.  now the dog has a learned behavior.  if you get corrected for biting the guy with the sleeve, bite the guy at the other end of the leash.  watch them flail about and create some fight.

john

Genetics play the biggest role rasing has influence on outcomes but very minimal at best...see elements of temperament article..hardness and handler agression have nothing to do with each other..a truly HARD dog is a confidant dog and rarely displays handler agression...they have fight drive, defensse drive nothing to do with bad nerve issues, opposite  of a clear headed dog with no  handler agression issues..Marlene

Hardness and handler aggression are absolutely connected. Maybe I am misreading your statement.....I agree that just because a dog is handler aggressive does not mean he is a hard dog, quite the contrary. But I assure you that in the good ones there is a definite connection between how hard and dominant the dog is and where the handler aggression comes in under the right circumstances.

Nowhere in the Elements of Temperament thesis, does it state that handler-aggression is genetic and "minimal at best" a learned behavior, or in any scientific study that I'm aware of.  That is simply your opinion, and I don't believe the author would agree with you.  The author herself, relates to the story of a completely aloof dog that she turned into a "social butterfly".  That, to me, is more believable.

Aggression is core temperament, but handler-aggression is a behavior, a way in channeling that aggression.  Like adultery is to sex drive, just one possible way to relieve the stress, among other possible options.

Handler aggression can occur out of confusion (displacement aggression), avoidance, defense, dominance, and can occur in a dog with weak nerves, strong nerves, soft or hard dog, can be a reaction to stress or a challenge to rank.  The full compliment of core temperament, AND early life experience will determine it's norm of reaction to a stressful situation or role of dominance.

I don't imagine it difficult to intentionally create handler-aggressive dogs with great success with a majority of temperament types, but extremely difficult to reverse the process.  Could someone purposefully breed a litter of handler-aggressive dogs?  I doubt it, without a little post-welping helping.

There are too many subtle and not so subtle interactions of these elements of temperament that make up the full compliment, and the way they interact with each component AND their environment and past experience, to conclusively make blanket statements about their origin of cause.  But, my point being, a mode of conduct (behavior) is not genetically encoded, it's optional.

Temperament is without doubt, largely genetic, but behaviors are learned through genetic predisposition, and can take many forms, their tendencies leaning toward prior successful or rewarding experience. 

excellant info grimmdog and daryl,  i am always thankful when people can but info in technical terms. im not to good at that.

john

Well I guess I should chime in on this subject and give my 2 cents for what it is worth. I did call and talk to Gerald ubout his litter. Gerald was honest in what he has and tells it like it is. Even admitting that one litter he got the whole group back because they where more then the owners could handle.

I would have bought one after going and evaluating them myself probably, if I was still in my 20's or 30's and did not have 2 precious daughters living at home. I am sure I could have found one that had the heart of a lion and some brains to go with it. Just not willing to risk my kids welfare for no dog.

Mind you dureing that part of my life I also raised and did studio work with full grown Leopards and Cougers. Did not have children then either!

Now I'm in my 40's and have trained many breeds of man stoppers. I preffer a dog with a mind like Einstien and the guts of  a mellow lion. If something was to happen to me I know my girls are covered and well protected and my dog has a happy home to live out his life. The other way the story does'nt work out so well. Something happens to you and old mean and tuff as nails ends up put to sleep because no one else is going to get to your corps, god forbid!  Or get him out of your truck or house or kennel. And the wife and children dare not get near him as they have seen him attack you and he is supposed to be your buddy. Your friends dont want him either because they have heard you or your wife talk about your loyal companion that gave you 5o plus stitches for telling him No and Platz one to many times.

I also am a firm believer that genes are passed for temperment as well as any trait if not more so. Never saw a lion come ot of a dog that pissed on himself at the sign of a fight. Never saw a socially sound dog come out of 2 lions either. Have seen many sound tough dogs come from a lion and a sound stable dog that was not as tough.

2+2= 4 or 2 evens sound dogs make an even, more sound then not animals. 2+1= 3 or an odd, sound animal + not sound, some level headed sound, some not. Not sound -1 + -1  rarely would give you a sound dog! By sound I mean family and socially non threatning, while intruder agressive. Will bite and tear meat from anyone that intrudes his families home or person. Without being told to!

At the age of 5 are family's GSD pet and neighbor-hood baseball out fielder, for all the kids at the park did exactly that when my family left our house for a couple hours one night. 2 intruders thought they would rob are house. Blood, clothes and meat everywhere. You dont forget things like that at that age and never will. I hold my friend and loyal companions to a standered most cannot reach, but I will not quit searching, for these dogs are rare and to be admired by all.

Just my thoughts. mahon

bump for the sake of the other thread,

john