BEAUTIFUL WITH TITLE.. - Page 5

When you are discussing the original purpose of the GSD as a WORKING breed, the HGH is most certainly NOT irrelevant. I brought it up to point out, that like everything else, the AKC has watered it down.

Annette, interesting article, thanks for posting it.  I've bookmarked that site so I can read the rest of them.

Jump the pen fence..that's really useful in herding..

Above comment made by July. I don't know if you have ever moved sheep with your dogs before but I have. And I can tell you from experience that having a dog that will JUMP THE FENCE AND MOVE THOSE FlIGHTY LITTLE BOOGERS OFF THE GATE IS INDEED A VERY USEFUL SKILL TO HAVE. 

As far as gripping goes, sheep learn real quick if your dog has what it takes. Easily spooked dogs that can be intimidated by a fiesty ram WILL GET HURT. 

Grips and fence jumping in herding are important.

Now..I have nothing against gripping or jumping fence, what I was saying is there is not a lot of trial every years and not much place you can train for an HGH (need about 200 sheeps). I agree..AKC herding trials are border collie style of herding, but that's all we have (except that place in NY).  So I guess It is better than nothing..(but of course not enough for you guys as always!!)

But hey..no problem..I'm not going to loose sleep over it. Oh when I said it was irrelevant was not for the working aspect or anything like that..was just because we don't have real access to this discipline because not much people are doing it compare to the other style of herding (AKC).

 I am of the mindset that I like the shepherds that can actually work, while I see agility, obedience etc titles as nice, I don't personally feel they are as intense as the three phase schutzhund work. Or even UKC SDA stuff or whatever. But that's just for me and I'm not picking an argument here...HOWEVER, I think herding titles the HGH style are not around my parts. I had decided I wanted to get back into some herding (I had done some with a malinois mix a few years back) and I found a few places that offered herding. None of them would let me test my shepherds because they were "german style" (these are working lines, the one I would have thought to try was my one boy whose mother was from netherlands, father from belgium...he doesn't quite have the obedience I want for schutzhund so I was looking at other things for him (have since decided to at least finish his titles). They can be too aggressive. The lady knocked the style of herding, said "they just have to run up and down and create a barrier, it's not REALLY herding, it's a joke." Another place was worried because if they use the cane to get the dog out of there for gripping, he might go after them. And yes, he probably would at least try to take it from them. So even if I wanted to do AKC herding with him I couldn't. 

That's why Schutzhund was invented in the first place...because you can't really keep the shepherd herding in modern times, but they wanted to maintain the traits that made it special in the first place. Grip, courage, strength, high drive. Schutzhund is more relevant to the breed than AKC type herding. It is not difficult, especially with a lot of modern day training techniques, but training for it WILL show you qualities of the dog that will prove its worth in working. The most important thing probably to me is being able to work willingly under pressure. It is not merely about crazy dogs who want to bite things, or I guess it *shouldn't* be, of course that's all up to the discretion of the people involved.

I'm just trying to show the relation, because I've heard way too many people say GSDs were bred for herding, not Schutzhund, then I heard some say GSDs suck at herding compared to Border Collies, and of course that's not doing the breed any justice especially if you've been exposed to ones with the real GSD temperament. The truth about titles is they're just titles and prove very little (I don't, for example, go crazy just because a dog has Schutzhund 3). What I want to know is, during the training for the discipline, what weaknesses and strengths did the dog show? So even if the dog had an obedience title, and you could say it was 'working', but if it was only trained for that, how do you know if it's even close to the standard as you haven't tested it for those other things? Training only for obedience tests only the dog's willingness to work with you, and not even if you're a gifted trainer. AKC herding, from what I see, tests for things that I feel is different from what the German Shepherd was originally bred to do. Some chasing instinct towards the sheep, and a lot of obedience. And the GSD in my mind is not a good obedience dog compared to the Border Collie.  

I don't really care what kind of dogs you prefer your pets to be, and I'm not bashing what you choose to do with your dogs. The different types of GSD has existed to suit different flavours. But if your dogs are show dogs, or are just pets, then accept them as that way. If your dogs have titles, great; don't let it distract you, a working title is very different from working temperament.

The primary difference in the two camps of German Shepherds today is really one word..."Nerve or lack thereof ". To me the most sad thing I can see in FAR to many GS is that worried look in their eyes. A German Shepherd without nerve is very ugly and sad to me. Do not extrapolate my words into hardness. A German Shepherd does not have to be super hard to be a great working dog...but it must have nerve!!  How often have I seen GS at certain shows with that look of anxiety in their eyes. And you can train a dog with poor nerve to get a CD, maybe a CDX, but not a UD. My point being that if the GSDCA really cared about the complete dog why don't they have small things like the gunfire test at conformation shows. This will really flush out dogs that have poor nerves and disallow them from winning the accolades that allows them to be bred to continue to perpertrate the unsoundness. This isn't physical or even biting, but it would show a committment to improving. I went to an all breed conformation show thisyear for the first time in 15 years to see the GS. I saw that "Worried Look" in more dogs than not. In one class a dog tried to run out the gate every time he came around the ring with the tail tucked. This dog got a ribbon???!!! These obvious reasons are why many people can't be open minded about the AS. And how about the credibility of the judges that award ribbons to dogs that are obviously shy/scared. How can I respect or listen to anyone that allows our noble breed be rewarded in anyway, with these traits/behavoirs. If anything it is the responsibility of the judge to judge to the standard in both physical and mental attributes....or at least appear to...JMO

Gustav,your post is spot on, your comments about judges and thier judging "skills" are 100% accurate!!!! liz

Good point, Gustav.  The GSDCA could easily do a gunshot test and many dogs would wash out. That wouldn't scare the AKC as much as that "nasty bitework" does.

Whoever said that only spooks flunk the AKC herding instinct test is wrong. A dog can wash out by being overly aggressive  or by being too handler focused. Too much obedience training can produce excessive handler focus and the dog can be good in temperament otherwise. If the handler doesn't know how to herd, then the overly handler focused dog isn't going to succed in the test.

Yes to the OP, Lew Bunch (Carousel Farms) raises decent dogs. And I would consider buying a dog from Lori Nickeson (DeBrut) because she lives on a farm with sheep and her dogs all work. Her bitch Dixieland Jubilee is gorgeous as well as being herding titled. Ms. Nickeson put her first UD on one of her early GSDs without a trainer - she did all the training herself from Wynn Strickland's book. She isn't into SchH that I know of, but she likes her dogs able to work and that means good structure. I am familiar with the dogs from Covy Tucker Hill, Rivendell and Rohan and don't care for most of them because they are overangulated. Some are not, but too many are. The owner of Rohan freely stated she liked the overangulated dogs altho I believe she did breed an early dog to Stuttgart's Sundance Kid (Bear) who looked "German". This incredible dog (Bear) has 4,521 ROM points and I doubt anyone will catch him. His breeder still smiles when she speaks of him. Lance of Fran-Jo is a distant second with 3,256 points and Lance is considered a major stud dog in American lines. Funny that folks don't mention Sundance Kid as much.

The appearance of a dog does all come down to taste. Some of us like small, typey and sable; others like medium large, red and black and muscular. But the structure of a dog is specified in the standard, albeit imperfectly.  Many of the dogs who manage to get AKC Championships today do not have correct structure based on the standard. We'll have to see what the GSDCA Illustrated Standard committee comes up with. I've been around too long to hold my breath.

A side note: the GSDCA has been chosen as the host club of the 2013 WUSV Working Dog trial and is setting aside money and beginning the planning for this event.