sable genetics - Page 5

Some may see it that way.

I know who you are.  I know what I was told and it wasnt just Jerry.  I did not tell you that the litter was 100% German I knew that they had a tiny bit of American line in the mother but that she was a Bastin daughter, and that we trying to breed it back out.

Look I dont want to argue and fight with you.  I have said how I feel about it. I think you should at least apologize to the breeder.

But you have your way of seeing it and I have mine.  You are welcome to call me if you want to talk more. 817-707-9230.

I have training tonight so it will be after 9:00 before I answer.

Sherrie

I don't want to argue with you either.  but ever thing you have heard from Jerry is wrong about me.  and I never called him.

so just the simple fact that he told you I did, that makes him a lair.

I have stated above from the last pic the bitch looks sable, even though she doesn't have the markings that EVERY OTHER black sable has

I see no reason to apologize to anyone for just asking a question, now if other people see to it that I need to give you one, then so be it.  but I feel I owe no apology for a question.

Hey!!!! How about PM's they are Private Messages. They allow you to have these necessary airing out conversations without turning it into a soap opera.

Peace to all,

Michele and Pharaoh

PS, I will probably not get my questions answered.

Hey Pharoah,

Sorry, I would think there is a possibility but I am not a expert.  Check out the link below it should help.

  http://siriusdog.com/color-sable-genetics-breeding-shepherd-grau.htm 

Sherrie

Thanks for the link Sherrie, I highly recommend it. Very informative.

Michele and Pharaoh

You are very welcome, I am sorry you got ignored.

Sherrie

>>My pup Pharaoh's father is a very black sable and his mother is a black sable. It was known that Aron v Poppitz (daddy) carried the solid black gene as he has produced many litters in Germany. His mother Sindy v Ludwigseck could have carried sable/sable or or sable/black based on her picture pedagree. I assumed sable/bi-color  was not possible. Am I wrong? This was her first litter. There were 7 males and 1 female. Two of the male puppies were solid black. All of the other puppies were sable.

As Pharaoh has grown, there is brown evenly, deep between all of his toes, which can only be seen if you spread them apart. He is my "ersatz bi-color".

Some of you who are more up on the genetics, what were the chances of solid black? Was there a chance that Sindy carried the bicolor gene?>>

Hi Michele.  Yes, you're correct in that both parent have to be sable carrying black, to produce sables and black in their litter and the litter shows the perfect segregation of colours for this with a ratio of 3:1 - sable:black.  That's just a convenient coincidence here of course, helped by probability.

From what I can see from the database, no I don't think Sindy could carry bicolour as both her parents are sables that have produced black.... assuming Qira (Peddy daughter) is a black from her photo - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/528683.html

There is a theory that I've mentioned on this list in the past but got no response,  that to get this super dark black sable, the heterozgote of sable carrying black is required.  I'm not sure if that's correct.... are there enough solid black born to black sable x black sable litters across the board to substantiate this?

IME recessive blacks often have light pigment also, usually undercoat but sometimes guard hairs particularly in furnishings and between toes.  And agouti banding is often present too.  This certainly isn't confined to sables, it also occurs in tanpoints.

This link - http://siriusdog.com/color-sable-genetics-breeding-shepherd-grau.htm   A lot of good info there but also some very basic mistakes.

Just a point on the dominance of sable.  Although GSD sable is the top dominant pattern in regular GSD breeding there are patterns that can supercede this ie a sable doesn't necessarily have to have a sable parent.

In the GSD 'sable' is assigned to the wolf sable pattern a^w  but also true sable A^y also exist in the breed which is a clear, or relatively clear red/yellow and this is dominant over wolf sable.  So any litter with a true sable parent could produce a usual sable GSD.  And also there's the non standard colour white which is espistatic to the agouti patterns.  So any litter with a white parent could produce sable if the right agouti alleles where present.

well, we can say the dog is not white, so no she is not a masking sable as you have stated exist.

not all white dogs produce sable when bred to a dark colored dog

the masking sable white dogs are just that. genetically a sable.  when bred to  a dark colored dog, it will produce just like a sable.  the white just hides what color the dog is on the outside.  you have white dogs that are genetically black, but you will never see that due to the white coat.  I have seen white dogs bred to solid blacks and produce entire black litters, that would prove the white dog is genetically a solid black.  same with sable.  if part of the white dog's litter was blk/tan and solid blacks then we would know it was just black recessive.

Sorry Uber Land, I'm not quite sure which dog you're refering to with the different links on this thread.  The statement I was refering to, which is incorrect is -

"ok, I know you can not get a sable pup out of 2 dogs who ARE NOT SABLE.  1 parent must be sable to produce a sable puppy."

Whereas Molly's answer to you is more correct as it refers to genotype rather than phenotype -

"In order for there to be any sable gene in any dog, the dog must be a sable dog"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" I have seen white dogs bred to solid blacks and produce entire black litters, that would prove the white dog is genetically a solid black.  same with sable.  if part of the white dog's litter was blk/tan and solid blacks then we would know it was just black recessive."

Your first sentence is correct but not the last one.  I'm not sure if you mean white x black producing black and B&T would prove this, or if the white had B&T and black siblings.  Either way it's incorrect.