Use of E-Collars - Positive Training??? - Page 5

 Thank you Shasta, you said what I wanted to say, but much better.....

I don't know how else to explain it or describe it other than if you use a clicker you are marking a behaviour, correct?

I don't understand how it is difficult to grasp using a low stim, or vibration the exact same way.....

Fido sit.....wait for behaviour......dog sits......click, low stim, vibration, or voice.......reward.

It is all the same thing. You are using a sensory stimulus to mark an action or behaviour.

 Get A Real Dog, yes, you're using a clicker to mark a behavior (a bridge to give you time from the point the dog does the behavior until the point where the dog gets the actual reward). So you pair the click with a food reward or toy or some other reward. That by virtue of association makes the click valuable to the dog. 

I understand the concept, I just don't understand how it would work with all kinds of dogs, or why someone would use it that way because it seems to me like it would limit the use of the collar, it would only mean one thing.... a bridge/marker/conditioned reinforcer or whatever you want to call it. I could see how it would be useful in that it would allow the trainer to be able to work at a distance and provide added stimulation because the dog can feel it, but what of the dogs that view it too much as an aversive to be able to form a positive association? 

Like I said, I've had people say they use it this way before, but I've never seen them do it, and I wouldn't want to try to do it that way without seeing it done first. 

OK I see where you are going with this......

First thing is to remember that we are talking very, very low stimulus. I am also talking about forming behaviour on untrained dogs. The lenght of time you can do this will vary one each individual dog. If you have a handler sensitive or easy to handle dog with good drive, you can use this for quite sometime.

The dog does not have to associate stimulation with a negative. The intensity of the stimulation is where the dog can see it as a negative. When you get into escape training (teaching the dog how to turn the collar off) I see it as a tool to remind the dog what they are supposed to do because the dog already knows what is expected of it.

I hope this makes sense.

PS

I don't have any video because the dog I have now is super handler sensitive so I used voice markers with her.

Panzer we answer our cell phone because we KNOW what the vibration or music means. If you gave it to a baby he would not KNOW .

Perhaps you would let me put an ecollar on your neck and apply stimulation while you guessed what  I want.  I have a very creative mind and it might be quite some time - if at all- before you got it.  That is what you doing with your supposed positive punishment.  What is postiive about teaching your dog that he will get hurt  until and when somehow some way he magically figures out what you are asking him?????? 

Just curious why no answer Panzer. Message has fallen off first page and it's been a day.

Because the e-collar used at low level is NOT painful, duh.  It's too complicated  to explain over the net, those who don't understand need to go to some seminars or take lessons from an experienced trainer.  Those of you who think  good trainers use ecollars  at painful levels to train don't know what you are talking about.  E-collar stimulation can and is used to build drive.  Gard is 100% right, but internet trainers will never get it. 

 Sueincc,

It's too complicated to explain with the written word?  What does the dog do to cause the collar to be activated? (regardless of the stimulation level).   In other words, lets say I'm heeling with the dog, at what point would I say to myself "I need to press the button on the remote to activate the collar?"  I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just trying to understand the situation in which the collar is used?

Yes, it's something (like many things) you can't learn by reading about it, you must see it in use, and be trained how to use it, especially if you are going to use it to build drives.