Animal Rights Activists - Page 5

Louise,

Humanity is discovering— if they so care to seek, that your last statement, #4 is not exactly correct. Studies of elephants, dolphins, chimpanzees, gorillas and even whales say quite the contrary, just to name a few.

So many humans think we know it all, but is that really true?

animules,

The "Eastern" religions (especially Buddhism and Hinduism) do define some fairly highly evolved non-human animals and primates as "sentient beings" (because they can perceive with their senses)--all of which animals should be set free (not subject to ownership). Some cultures may regard these non-human sentient beings as "holy". Theses cultures may also believe in "reincarnation" or "transmigration of souls". If you were to hold these religious beliefs, perhaps you would not want to envision your "ancestor" from a previous lifetime lying on the slaughterhouse floor!  Goodness, in our secular society, some may even debate the existence of the human soul!

While MVF has written, " My religious conviction is that I should do least harm to all feeling creatures", our society guarantees him freedom to hold and to express his religious convictions. However, in our society, we also allegedly have separation of church and state. The United States was not established by our Founding Fathers as a theocracy. With this in mind, MVF's religious convictions have no business in fostering legislation that would restrict the majority of other citizens from exercising their basic constutional freedoms (including their property rights).

Excellent post Louise, and I agree.  We have some friends that practice Buddhism.  Also, a friend of mine in California actually found legislation where animals known to be used pets cannot be slaughtered for human consumption.  I figured that about ruled out any animal there was, Hinduism was the first thing that came to mind with their sacred cows.   I can't think off hand of any animal somebody somewhere has not made into a pet.  It's obviously not being enforced at this time or MVF could be one happy person living in the first vegitarian state.

I wonder if your direct questions will ever get answered. 

beetree,

Do these non-human mammals have similar systems of beliefs (including religious and mythological beliefs) and moral values that span the history of civilized mankind and exist in widely dispersed societies and cultures?  Do they have written or oral histories laid down from one generation to the next? Do they have different spoken and written languages varying from one civilization to another. Do they have art or music as we know them? While we may be like Albert Schweitzer and value the "sanctity of life", do all of these animals hold similar values?

MVF has written that "Chimps share 98.3% of our DNA". I say, "Vive le difference!" 

When AKC first began DNA testing "frequently used studs", I sent in DNA cheek swabs for one of my males and for his grandson (with obvious phenotypic differences). After (a non-geneticist) comparing the similarities found on the DNA certificates issued for these two males, I felt that something was fishy. I conferred with my PhD biologist (having a great foundation in the field of genetics) friend who confirmed my suspicions. She said that , if one were to rely only on these genetic markers in an attempt to determine paternal parentage of a hypothetical litter fathered by both males, one could not accurately determine the parentage of 25% of the puppiesl Upon receipt of this unexpected information, AKC sent me additional DNA kits for the submission of swabs that would be analyzed using an expanded number of genetic markers.

Louise,

You may note that what made the Nazi regime so dangerous and effective was its political manipulation. Hitler made compelling promises to the German people, and followed through to the extent that they were willing to support him and believe his further manipulations. This should serve to warn us as we fall prey to various manipulations of politicians and supposed benevolent organizations.

MVF,

Alf, PETA, Black Panthers, et al are/were violent criminals. Their crimes generally have been cowardly, destructive, and bullying. There are those who note the bravery of the 911 terrorists. We call that STUPIDITY. Normal people  learn when they are toddlers not to attack people or destroy their property when a disagreement arises. Those who fail to learn as children rightly become the tenants of the prison system or end up dead at the hands of an honest person who stands up to defend their person, property, or the safety of others. Criminals frequently rationalize their bahavior. Liberals like to romanticize these lies. They are none the less criminals, and I would sooner shoot them than give them a penny even if they had done NEARLY as many positive things as the NAZIs. 

Best Wishes All, Jonah 

Well said, Jonah!!

Louise,

We can't know for sure what a whale is saying, can we? Could be a symphony of the highest order in whale language. It used to be said, humans are superior because only we use tools, something no other animals do. Jane Goodall proved that false. Elephants communicate using their feet to create vibrations, not so different than a Native American communicating with drums. And actually it is proven that elephants and whales must teach their young what they need to know to survive and reproduce, and do not rely on instincts for this knowledge.You can keep changing the bar to serve your purpose, but my point is, we discover all the time that many a dumb beast isn't as dumb as we thought, and yes, does share in perceiving  emotions. Careful, though, I am not saying we should humanize animal emotions. Just that, for example, grief for an elephant is something an elephant can perceive in its distinctly, elephant way.   I agree with MVF, that only in time, if we humans keep probing with open minds, our views of animals as sentient beings will continue to astound us and prove out. 

But I can see we won't be changing each others minds, and that's okay by me.

I also share the view that animal rights extremists do not help with keeping a meaningful dialogue going, that would actually serve to better the plight of animal suffering.

Peace to you.

~Deb

I studied animal behaviour in depth in university. When chimps were taught American Sign Language, it opened up a fascinating window into the workings of their minds. I am not sure which chimp this was, I am thinking it was Washoe. There was a book written about her, "The First Signs of Washoe".

She was capable of putting two signs together to make up her own word for things. She called swans 'water birds' and watermelon 'drink fruit'.

She had a sense of humour. They were putting her to bed one night, and she kept insisting her blanket was red. (Like humans, chimps have excellent colour vision.) Her keeper kept insisting the blanket was grey. Finally, Washoe reached out and picked a tiny piece of red fluff off the blanket!

She would shift the blame to cover something she'd done. When she knocked the basin off the wall in her enclosure, she pointed to the damage and told her keeper "Ray (one of the other keepers) was bad there yesterday."

The more we learn about animals, the more we find they are not as different from us as we thought.

Geese separated from their mates have been known to go into a severe decline and even die from grief.

Dogs have been known to die as a result of being separated from the ones they are bonded to, whether human or canine. (A friend's husky suffered a heart attack following the death of his littermate companion, others on these forums have told of dogs dying as a result of losing their humans.)

On July 21, I started this thread by posting:

My problem with the Michael Vick horror is that it will bring more donations and give greater credibility (in the public eye) to PETA and HSUS (finally minding its business and doing its job) when Levine brings back his "new and improved" AB 1634 to the California State Senate in January 2008.

Lets not stray further from my original purpose of this thread: whether the AR activists will capitalize on the media blitz following the Vick case and use it as a tool to further their own hidden agendas. Sadly, these zealots have wasted no time! 

Here are some quotes I received  today in an email from Bill Hemby (Chairman of PetPAC):

They've characterized us as tax cheats, criminals and "monsters." Now, in their latest outrageous accusation, they call us "Dog fighters [who] torture and kill their animals."

Although we successfully defeated California AB 1634, an overreaching and invasive mandatory pet spay/neuter law, our opponents have not given up.

While the author of the bill, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine, prepares another version of AB 1634 for the Senate Local Government Committee, those behind the measure have only increased their shrill rhetoric and efforts against pet owners.

On a national level, PETA is urging supporters to "Meet with your local officials to get a [mandatory spay/neuter law] passed in your own community," and encouraging Assemblyman Levine, "not to give up."

As California goes, so may the nation go!!   Please help us in our continued battle against AB 1634 in California by supporting the efforts of PetPAC  and its 35,000 members.

louise, you are right. they are gearing up for another go round on this. i was trying to find another copy of the patti strand book i recommended to mvf (can't find mine) and ended up "listening" on a forum for some activists. also i read a blog by a MrSpay and it shows that the "other side" is definitely planning to push this in another 6 months or so. they are not going to give up. personally, i think we have enough laws in california (they just need to enforce them), but they are not gonna stop here.