Breeding question... - Page 5

OK.....sorry I couldn't respond earlier, I'm working all week this week, so I have to catch up when I can. No offense taken, I understand that you're saying that the judging of dogs' attributes is somewhat subjective....and that makes, in your opinion, it difficult to know why anyone should breed workinglines with showlines??? Point by point responce to your other responces......I'm a newbie to schutzhund (very green), but my breeder evaluated my showline female, standing naturally, and said that her angulations were nearly exactly to the standard, and that she had a beautiful topline; we are taking baby steps in training, ( my baby steps, she takes leaps and bounds), my girl easily takes the inclined wall, and the jump; when we go for hikes, she doesn't flinch at any obstacle; no, she is not titled, not her lacking, but mine...I'm sure she could do anything she was introduced to, and excell at it. She is smart, eager, athletic, very protective, very up for anything I throw at her....(you can tell I'm more than a little proud of her).....sure my breeder could have been stroking me, but she does look good to me, I get compliments about her all the time, from knowledgable persons and laypersons......she has flaws as well, she is overshot...and that's where the breed standards come in, guidelines to keeping the breed strong.....and useful, not just for dogsport, but in real life working situations, where many of her relatives are. (Police, drug detection, and SAR dogs.) So, what is your defination of crap? jackie osborne

My definition of crap is really not gonna cut it here on a showline board. The police dogs and such are where in her pedigree?? Did you post it??

My personality is one that wants an aweful lot from the dogs I have. I have gotten softer over the years, for sure. : )  I do not look at a bitch the same way that I look at a dog, but the training is done, maybe not the title, to see what the bitch is.

I am not looking for lots of aggression in the work, but LOTS of prey drive for a bitch. I like them to be outgoing to a point. When I say not overly friendly, I am thinking of a bitch that says hello, and then pretty much ignores you and comes back to me. I like them to be a little nutty about me, as I have had good luck with that in the past, and have read where others like this as well. I do NOT like a sharp bitch, or weird in any way. The overshot thing would be the end of my even thinking of breeding the bitch. I can handle other things, but the mouth has to be right.

Structure is so subjective, but then you go out and start doing the jumps. Gotta be able to jump, and jump high. I do not want clumsy being bred. I don't consider the A frame the same as the pallisade, but if you have a nutso dog that loves to launch off the top with no ill effect, then you can consider the "structure" correct.

The hardest thing about calling something crap, is that a part of the time, there is something about the dog that still apeals to people. My dog Axel was very pretty, but by my standards "crap" HOWEVER!!!!!!!! : ) he had character. It was not so much drive that sent him down the field all the time, as his character. He "stood in the door" a few times and proved to me that he was worth keeping a couple of times. If I had not been right there when he did the things that he did, I would have looked at whoever told me the story and laughed and laughed and called them Walt Disney.

Too much typing, I think I have wounded something.LOL

After careful consideration, I did that with my last litter: Portia vom Haus Roecker (wkg) x Logan von zwei Steinen (show)

I am delighted with the results. I kept a female blk/red named Chanel vom Frauengarten. She shows plenty in all phases of the work, got VP in a puppy class, critiqued as "definately breeding quality."

I will note that Portia's mother, V Conni vom alten Turnerplatz, SchH 3, has some "old" show lines behing her (Bolsruh) from back when wkg/show were all the same dogs, and her father goes to Grief Lahntal through Half Busecker Schloss, although Portia herself will likely not get V in conformation. Now 11.5, strong and young for her age, I would have put Conni up against any femlae in her prime. I would caution that not every wkg/show cross is going to produce good results. You really need to know your lines on all sides, and have a hard, realistic knowledge of the strengths and weakness in and behind the dogs. With Portia, who has enough drive for 3-4 dogs,  I was looking for more pronounced secondary sex characteristics, bone, higher withers/better topline, and better movement. I got all those things in the litter, but could still use higher withers and a better topline, better rear angulation and a longer upper arm. Her expression is MUCH better than her mom's, definately feminine, great markings, same dark, dark eyes as mom and Grandma Conni & Grandpa Pallo. The only thing I am concerned about at this point is her size: she is a tad small in height for her age, but this may change with development, and with too many dogs being/producing over the standard in height I can live with this. Its an easy fix. I am very pleased with the temperament from the litter, which was the biggest concern. Don't see any problems titling several of the youngsters from this breeding.

We are seeing wkg/show crosses more and more in Germany, primarily done by working kennels to improve the structure in their dogs, but also in show kennels looking to improve wkg ability. Overall, the results are better than they were 10 years ago, largely because so many of  the show line breeders saw the handwriting on the wall in the late nineties and turned to breeding dogs with better working ability.

Which way will I go with Chaenl when the time comes? Hard to say. Depends on how she turns out. (she's only 7.5 months old) I will probably breed her to a great looking wkg line dog with a pedigree featuring many more of same.

SS

Workingdawg-- I am interested in your breeding.  I would like to know how the pups turn out, what their drives are as they get older, etc.  Do you do tests on the puppies as they grow?  It will be very interesting to see how the pups turn out.  I tried to send you email, but it bounced.

Here is an accomplished dog that has showlines bred into the working lines, though the showlines are from the 80's: Henrico von den jung Hanson  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/46109.html

We have his litter brother Harry in our club.  He is a great dog, you can see his showline inheritance in his structure, but has a straight back.  He has great drives and a crushing bite.  Three times SchH3 with an amatuer owner.

Veronica

It takes much study to have success with the crosses.  Rather than go into all that, which would be a whole book....  I will share one of my successes.  I will attach a picture so that both show and work can see the good structure and pigment. Although the stack is not perfect, she placed 10th out of 17 at NASS 2006. She has excellent nerves and drives and is one of the most agile dogs I've ever seen, with the exception of her mother being equally agile. Her gate is near perfect. I have discussed this with others who have considered or do crosses and the biggest reason most have for the success is that there is an actual common ancester - V Sagus Busecker Slosse.  Sagus is out in the 7th generation on the sire, but is 5,6 on the dam. Even though it is too far out to be considered line breeding, something in common may be the key in success? Here is the pedigree: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/478848.html

Debby   ebinezer052899@yahoo.com   castlebrookshepherds.net

OK, so she is cute, but can she work?? : )

I have some questions on all this for those of you that have bred show to work.

!. Do you get a split in the litter in body type??? My Axel looked show, but all but one of his brothers looked working.

2. What kind of drives and personality do you look for in the stud??

3, How many puppies work vs show. In other words how many out of the litter actually go to working homes??

Veronica,

 you can e-mail me at tpd2654@yahoo.com

let me know if you have any questions

OK- maybe I'll have a minute finally to respond. This is a great thread, BTW. My bitches siblings from previous litters are police dogs, an uncle is a drug dog, & there are SAR dogs & several 'therapy' dogs that are 1/2 siblings on both the paternal & maternal side of her pedigree. She is a little sharp, and is nutso to do anything with me on the trail...will lauch herself off cliffs, into rivers, etc.. I don't know anything about FR sport, so I can't really say anything for her aptitude there, but she's game to try anything I put her to..no difficulty jumping up, down, off of, onto...whatever I've challenged her with, she's done, & never been lame after, or had any difficulty with her structure prohibitting her performance. And she's held off a real life bad guy, and saved me from a diabetic coma....so, I'm crazy about her! Oops...gotta go! jackie

Jeff,

Last I saw of her, her drives are through the roof with energy that never ends.  I hope she gets worked!  That is the main problem with Show/Work crosses.... working homes are VERY hard to find. People like yourself are leary and do not take a chance to find out if it works or not. Working homes in general are hard to find, even with a full working line litter. That is why I offer a significant discount to experienced handlers, whether it be work or show. The good thing about this cross is that I own both parents and will be repeating the litter soon and will keep one back this time.

Yes, there is a difference in body types, but the temperament and drives seemed to be very close.

The stud and bitch must have solid nerves, first and formost.  I have seen both show and working lines with very bad nerves.  I look for high drives and natural full calm grips.  I want to see the dog is serious and enjoying the work, not just doing as it is told. I also want to see that the dog is social. To me that is important as the majority of pups will go to family homes who do not need to worry about a sharp temperament.

I've spoken of the problem with working homes above, but to add to that...  a good amount of potential for work is in the experience of the owner raising the puppy.  The rest is in the pups heart. That's where apptitude testing helps to know who has more potential for work.  We all know that anyone can ruin a puppy for work, by being too hard on it. No matter what lines it is.  In this particular litter, all of did well in the testing.  So, all had the potential to do well.  The sad thing is that even though several owners got involved in schutzhund training, and the pups were doing well, not many followed through as it was their first SchH dog.  One is owned by a K9 training facility in Chicago, who loves the dog.  But he will never compete as he is mostly personal protection.  Other litters have shown more clear division in working potential. As a side note, I think it is harder to get a show/work cross to do well in the conformation ring more so than SchH training. Just my experience.

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com  castlebrookshepherds.net

I would love to see some sort of "meeting of the minds" with working and show people getting together to see if there really are some good hard showline stock.

I think the major points of contention would be emphasis on color, and structure, and not enough on drives, for the working and opposite for the show.

Unfortunately, most working people I know are "show me" types and until there is some serious campaigning done with showlines and proof that they have some hardcore dogs out there, it is going nowhere.

Can't really speak for the showline people, so feel free to chime in.