working line breeders in Canada - Page 4

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by realcold on 03 March 2007 - 13:03

Now you are saying that you don't title because It could effect your "working bitches". Last Saturday we put on a demo at the Central Canada Outdoor Show. This was held in a large golf dome. When we started doing tug work with the puppies and young dogs the barking started to draw the crowd. Obedience saw these crowds grow even larger due to the now larger dogs barking with intensity. Then came protection and you could hear wows from the people occasionally between barking. The dogs loaded in this ampliphied enviorment and defence was easy to see by the crowd. NOW after protection the biggest impact of the day was made by us with the dogs when we let the crowd pet and play with the dogs who had just done protection. People could not believe it. Now why is it that you don't title your females. BTW we have had Carmspack dogs in our club and I have seen many. They are only O'kay. The PSD dogs that are numerous and great come from de Brucelee and Lucescue. These are very good to great breeders in that area. --Bob

Stalworth

by Stalworth on 03 March 2007 - 16:03

Bob, first I never said that we don't title our dogs. We do however need to be selective about which dogs are worked in protection (real or sport). 2nd, I never said that sport or protection dogs were unstable. Our dogs are all socially stable individuals. So far as our choice not to cross train SAR or service dogs in protection, aside from the fact that this is our choice, it comes down to liability. Regardless of how stable a dog is, if he bites to protects you (for whatever reason) it is difficult to justify in court if the dog has training in bite work. Most agencies in this area will not deploy civilian SAR dogs with any aggression work, period! What you do in your area is your business. Honestly Bob, I don't care about your opinions on this topic. As I said before we're all entitled to our own opinion, nobody said we all have to agree. Personally I prefer to be more open minded and less accusatory. Perhaps you feel you are an expert in your field, and who knows perhaps you are. Regardless, I still see no need to further this discussion with you. It is pointless and irrelevent to Autobahn's original question. If you would like to contribute some useful information to this thread I would suggest you try and support Autobahn in his efforts to find a good 'small' breeder of working line dogs in Canada.

Stalworth

by Stalworth on 03 March 2007 - 16:03

Autobahn, another very good small Canadian breeder you may like to look at is DeBellator Shepherds. Awesome working dogs! Here's a link: http://www.debellator.germanshepherddog.ca/

by realcold on 03 March 2007 - 17:03

This is totally revelent to Autobahn's quest. You should start with breeders who only breed titled dogs. That is the start only. Next I would only get a pup from a female I have seen worked. If the breeder has gone to that lenght you can be sure that they went to a great male such as Illo von Abfur. --JMHO--Bob

by Winnie on 03 March 2007 - 17:03

Actaully a lot depends on what Autobahn wants from his dog. If he wants a good SchH dog that will be able to compete at high levels then yes, I would likley also recommend going to a kennel that titles thier dogs in SchH. However, if he is looking for a dog that can work in personal protection, detection, etc then a kennel breeding SchH MIGHT and MIGHT not be a the best choice. Some of the SchH dogs out there are what I refer to as high 'sport' dogs. That is not a bad thing, it is just what they are. Often they are not balanced in thier drives and instead are over the top in prey. Again, not necessarily a bad thing but not what I need for the WORK my dogs do. I need a dog that is more balanced in thier drives. THey are ALL capable of working in SchH, but might not be the high scoring dog on the field. All are worked in personal protection, although not 'extensively' by my choice. (have many reasons for it). All my dogs are capable of doing very good bite work. Detection dogs need to be very social dogs. They cannot be overly sharp or react to every slight movement. Many agencies/contracts that employ detection dogs require that they are NOT worked in protection. Where I live the public school system decided to use drug dogs to go through the high schools. It was a REQUIREMENT that they not have ANY protection training period. In fact, they were so paranoid about it they went further to say that the dogs used could not be german shepherds. The same goes for dogs worked in SAR. Not all detection contracts are like this but many are. One of my male's sons is a certified explosive detection dog and in the off season is used as a security dog (he patrols underground parking lots and buildings). He is trained to work in 'gang' settings as well as individual attacks. This training goes WAY beyond SchH. Some SchH dogs would be able to do this type of work and some would not. Thankfully we have some very realistic people in this are working in the SchH clubs who understand these differences. When I was looking for a nice stud for my non SchH titled female (she is titled in herding) I visited several breeders who actively worked/titled thier dogs in SchH. Some were very honest and upfront about thier dogs and thier abilities. Some were not recommended as they considered them pure 'sport' dogs. Not likley capable of doing real work but great on the SchH field. I think this topic is a hard one. Generally I agree that a dog needs to be titled before breeding. AND, when looking for a stud, I look at the SchH dogs and often breed to them. However, I also look for other things in the dog. If I am lucky I get to work/test them on my flock of sheep so that I can see the qualities needed and what I am looking for. I can usually tell the pure sport dog from a dog that is capable of doing real work. It shows on the herding feild as well. On occasion I will breed to an untitled male. A lot depends on the circumstances, thier qualities, training etc. I bred to an untitled male a few years ago. He was worked in SchH (and recieved his SchH 1 eight months after the breeding). This male was FAR superiour to other SchH males that I was able to work on sheep. And it showed in the breeding. 2 pups/dogs are now certified explosive dogs, one is a hearing assistant dog for a lawyer who is deaf. I kept a male that is phenominal at herding and an incredible dog in his bite work. Another is worked/titled in SchH, another is working/being trained in SAR. Several others in active companion homes.

by Winnie on 03 March 2007 - 17:03

Actaully a lot depends on what Autobahn wants from his dog. If he wants a good SchH dog that will be able to compete at high levels then yes, I would likley also recommend going to a kennel that titles thier dogs in SchH. However, if he is looking for a dog that can work in personal protection, detection, etc then a kennel breeding SchH MIGHT and MIGHT not be a the best choice. Some of the SchH dogs out there are what I refer to as high 'sport' dogs. That is not a bad thing, it is just what they are. Often they are not balanced in thier drives and instead are over the top in prey. Again, not necessarily a bad thing but not what I need for the WORK my dogs do. I need a dog that is more balanced in thier drives. THey are ALL capable of working in SchH, but might not be the high scoring dog on the field. All are worked in personal protection, although not 'extensively' by my choice. (have many reasons for it). All my dogs are capable of doing very good bite work. Detection dogs need to be very social dogs. They cannot be overly sharp or react to every slight movement. Many agencies/contracts that employ detection dogs require that they are NOT worked in protection. Where I live the public school system decided to use drug dogs to go through the high schools. It was a REQUIREMENT that they not have ANY protection training period. In fact, they were so paranoid about it they went further to say that the dogs used could not be german shepherds. The same goes for dogs worked in SAR. Not all detection contracts are like this but many are. One of my male's sons is a certified explosive detection dog and in the off season is used as a security dog (he patrols underground parking lots and buildings). He is trained to work in 'gang' settings as well as individual attacks. This training goes WAY beyond SchH. Some SchH dogs would be able to do this type of work and some would not. Thankfully we have some very realistic people in this are working in the SchH clubs who understand these differences. When I was looking for a nice stud for my non SchH titled female (she is titled in herding) I visited several breeders who actively worked/titled thier dogs in SchH. Some were very honest and upfront about thier dogs and thier abilities. Some were not recommended as they considered them pure 'sport' dogs. Not likley capable of doing real work but great on the SchH field. I think this topic is a hard one. Generally I agree that a dog needs to be titled before breeding. AND, when looking for a stud, I look at the SchH dogs and often breed to them. However, I also look for other things in the dog. If I am lucky I get to work/test them on my flock of sheep so that I can see the qualities needed and what I am looking for. I can usually tell the pure sport dog from a dog that is capable of doing real work. It shows on the herding feild as well. On occasion I will breed to an untitled male. A lot depends on the circumstances, thier qualities, training etc. I bred to an untitled male a few years ago. He was worked in SchH (and recieved his SchH 1 eight months after the breeding). This male was FAR superiour to other SchH males that I was able to work on sheep. And it showed in the breeding. 2 pups/dogs are now certified explosive dogs, one is a hearing assistant dog for a lawyer who is deaf. I kept a male that is phenominal at herding and an incredible dog in his bite work. Another is worked/titled in SchH, another is working/being trained in SAR. Several others in active companion homes.

by Winnie on 03 March 2007 - 17:03

Not sure how that posted twice...sorry.

by realcold on 03 March 2007 - 18:03

Autobahn wrote " Thank-you for the links. I would prefer to buy from a small breeder who works and titles their dogs themselves. Narnia breeds too many litters for my liking." She/he seems to be on the right track. How about honestly answering the request. BTW you people should spend your time training and titling your breeding bitches instead of trying to justify your breeding principles.-Nuff said-Bob

by Gustav on 03 March 2007 - 22:03

"people should spend their time titling and training your breeding bitches" instead of JUSTIFYING your breeding principles" Excuse ME!!...After 38 years in the breed I don't feel a need to justify anything I do unless it is counterproductive. And as long as I continue to produce police dogs, SAR dogs, Sch dogs(yes titled), extremely happy pet owners, and always have a waiting list of people that want dogs from me ...I won't be justifying nothing to nobody!!Justifying, we talking bout justifying, not producing the above dogs but JUSTIFYING!Please trade me to Denver!...justifying(still shaking my head with a smile).

Stalworth

by Stalworth on 04 March 2007 - 00:03

Thanks for jumping in on this one guys. Winnie, very well put. Gustav, I'm with you... no need to "justify" anything to anyone. Let the dogs speak for themselves! I hope that our conversation has proven helpful to Autobahn and that he is able to see through all the smoke and mirrors and still find a great dog who suits his purpose (whatever that may be). Good luck in your search Autobahn.





 


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