Prong collar- at what age to start using it - Page 4

Thank you Joanro, Hired dog and Qman. This is all very helpful. As I mentioned before, so far the training has been predominiately positive reinforcement/marker  training, but I can see the need for a good correction at times, so the detailed explanations were a big help. 

When I referred to correcting appropriately...This goes for NOT only the dog but the HANDLER as well...Meaning that if the dog doesn't understand the correction then it's an inappropriate correction...Also if the handler is either not used to usuing a Prong Collar or absolutely new to a Prong Collar...or maybe the dog has never been introduced to one before then it's better to figure out what level of correction is appropriate rather then correcting so hard that you can affect the dog in a way that they won't recover...
You should never...with any equipment...correct harder then what's needed...
If you tell someone to correct so hard that the dog learns from it...then I have found that this could be the wrong advice to give...because people can go out and CRUSH the dog...I find it much better to tell someone to learn to adjust the correction to the point from which the dog will change his attention from the unwanted action...
Things are much different if you are seeing and working a dog IN PERSON...

~Bob~

I understand what you are saying, Qman. Although I am far from an expert, I do know how to use the collar. When I trained with the Schutzhund club 20 years ago everyone used either a prong or e-collar on older puppies and dogs. I trained with the club for well over a year (really don't remember exactly how long)  and also trained my sister's hearing assistance dog under the direction of a professional trainer, who also trained and titled in Schutzhund. So, I had a lot of guidance and instruction in learning to use the prong collar. Can't say I loved using it and I still don't, but I also can see where it is a very useful training tool.

I can remember about 6 years ago I went to observe an obedience class to assess whether or not I wanted to take my rescue girl there. I was absolutely appalled at what I saw. The dogs had either a prong or choke collar and handlers were cranking their dogs all the time. It was awful and I felt so sorry for the dogs. I am saying this to let you know I understand the concern of a prong collar being used incorrectly and in the wrong hands. 

Bob, when I speak, I need to trust that the person at the other end either has some experience with the subject at hand, if not, gets some help from someone who does, is not an idiot and has a basic understanding of dog training, otherwise the entire purprose of these forum is null and void.
While anyone can come in here and offer advice, it is up to the individual who is asking for it to go out and try, research and find out if it works out for them or not.
The biggest reason why I avoid giving training advice to anyone in a place such as this is because I have never seen the dog in person, but, I know how a prong or an E collar works, I expect the person asking to also either know too or go out and find out.

HD, I also very SELDOM give any advice on here on training for the same reason. It's difficult to know if the person asking, understands when I say "make the first correction count, but be careful not to over do it." @Qman, I have read a lot of posts by Starchar, and she doesn't strike me as being a goof who will go out and tear her dog's head off just because he looked at the neighbor's dog and wagged his tail at it, inviting a bit of playful interaction. Star, I know you will succeed in your goals with your dog, without "crushing" her. Enjoy ;-)

Joanro, I was not directing this at Star, I am speaking in general terms and addressing my last post to Bob. I am sure most people are intelligent enough to realize that dog training does involve some experience, if you want to do it right.

HD, I fixed my post.

Thank you for your vote of confidence, Joanro! I promise I will not dissapoint :) Thank you again for all of your help! 

 5 points sequence of giving correction for every day life training.. 

Name - command- NO - correction on leash/collar- rearward after correct performance. ( in that order) 

If  I use a collar to correct ( pinch or chock) I make sure of several things.

1/ first I make absolutely sure that the dog understands the command (which I have trained with some form of positive motivation) Then if he  is not responding to me because it is giving me a finger or is distracted I start correction sequence.

First the command:  I like to give the dog command by name and command.  Name is alerting part getting attention and command is commanding part. Buster - sit!

2/ Then if Buster does not sit I always say NO first(!!)or use other form of negative voice correction in deeper then my normal voice. I believe that it  is EXTREMELY important (!!!) to say "NO" first before any physical correction. This is counterintuitive and people have some little trouble with it .  Most people tend to correct on the leash first and then to say no. If you correct that way,  then you will have other problems later. Thus  you must think about it and make sure that voice correction always  comes first- before physical correction. The reason for that is that:

A/ you are conditioning the dog  same way as Pavlov condition his dogs. Here we are conditioning the dog to let say sit by avoiding physical correction after they hear NO.

B/ next reason is that it is fair warning to the dog  like growl of a dominant dog in leadership position before he bites.

C/ Another reason is that if you condition the dog adequately and long  enough on sort distance while on leash,  then the dog will listen to your "NO" even so he is not on the leash and in increasingly longer and longer distance. That type of conditioning requires about 300 repetitions through about 1 week training in buch of short sessions and by using it in every day life.

This is little harder to do then with e collar but I like the dog to spend time on this and for the dog to see that the correction is coming from me and I  believe in gradual - incremental training which forces you to do strong foundation conditioning on short distance or the failure in long distance is then inevitable .

3/correction on the leash/collar is used when the dog /pup is physically and mentally mature enough.  That may vary and I personally do not use pinch collar before 8 months and 45 lb of the weight of the GSD, but it is possible to use it sooner  by extremely skilled trainer.. Remember you do not want install fear in the dog you want to install respect for the leader.  However I believe that there is always plenty of time to use such device. I may put the pinch on younger pups only to get them used to it's feeling but I do not use it in corrective manner until 8 mo and /or 45 lb.  

I believe that the collar should not be snug around the neck of the dog, but it should be  just barely lose enough to be pulled over the dog's head.  That assures the contrast between correction and neutral time where there is no correction and collar is lose. If the  pinch is tight all the time then the dog is in permanent state of correction and even so many trainers swear by it I do not believe  in that concept.

So if the dog did not responded to : name- command-"NO" sequence so far then I escalate to physical correction. "Escalation of correction"  is a natural concept around canines. 

The  important point is that the correction on pinch (or chock for that matter)  must be strong enough for the dog so that he does not want to get another one but not any stronger then absolutely necessary. If you follow this former instruction then you will avoid the dog waiting for slight nag correction to perform the command. You will also  avoid repetitive correction which may   backfire on you in long distance work. However if the correction is too strong then the dog will get depressed and be afraid of you. that needs to be also avoided at all cost. This is called the "avoidance training". Correction should be a short snap and not pull. Thus  remember. One more time.  : The correction must be strong enough fopr the dog to respond on firs command but not any stronger. That then is a humane correction. 

4/ When the dog responds then you reward the dog in a usual motivational way. Petting, praising, playing, food and high pitched happy voice. 

 JMO

 Prager Hans

 

Hans, Thank you for your expertise and for taking the time to write your detailed post. It is very helpful.  I sent you a PM.