Ok to ask Buyers to Neuter/Spay puppy? - Page 4

Seems kinda hypocritical.  "I can breed *my* unregistered dog and produce unregistered puppies but I don't want *you* to do the same so I'll need you to spay your puppy."  What's the difference between them and you?  

Emoore,

Interesting point............

I don't think it is an interesting point.

If you read through the whole thread you will see that the OP is someone who has trained and plans on continuing to train service dogs.  The individual is breeding one litter to accomplish this purpose and is being responsible about the placements of puppies not selected for service dog program.

To me, apples and oranges between an experienced trainer who is thoughtfully breeding a litter for a specific purpose to train and place in service homes versus some uneducated breeder breeding a thoughtless litter for money.  Also, if you know anything about service dogs than you would know pedigree is the last thing they look for!

Sara

Unfortunately Sara I do not agree with you. The poster states (if I remember right) that she has trained HER OWN dog to be a service dog. The litter will be a tester of sorts for ongoing service work. Any breeder will tell you that even with the best possible dogs chosen through pedigree's and actual work ability, not all pups will work or have the necessary abilities to make a good service dog.

Pedigees SHOULD play a roll in selection. Any trainer who breeds and doesn't know what they are breeding (through pedigrees) is guessing and why spend all the money to raise a litter for a guess.

If you know anything about genetics you know that phenotype does not necessarily equal genotype.  Choosing a service dog has nothing to do with pedigree, true; but choosing a BREEDING dog (yes even just one litter) has just as much to do with the dog's genetics as it has to do with the expressed phenotype.  Yes, even in service dogs.  Just because a dog is skilled at a job doesn't mean the offspring will be.  You can't have it both ways.  Either your dog's genetics are worthy of being passed on, or they are not.  Does the OP believe the dog's genes will produce excellent service dogs or not?  If not, the dog should not have been bred.  If so, why spay/neuter the offspring when the genes might provide much-needed service dogs?  

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.... 

Sara

Let's try this again, Emoore. How many people are going to want these puppies as potential service dogs?

The OP realizes that the pups MAY fall into the hands of a BYB or, even worse, a puppy mill. You can do all the homework you want on a potential buyer, and still be fooled.

I see nothing wrong with requiring a non-breeding contract. Breeders of registered GSDs do it all the time. And I think it's the ethical thing to do, unless he knows the buyer very well.

Question?

Forgive me please if I have missed it BUT how many puppies from the litter is OP going to keep for herself to train and prove that the bitch was worth mating?

She is after all wanting to prove that 1) the bitch has certain abilities that are breed worthy.  2) that she is a good dog trainer.

Once again forgive me if I have missed it.

Dogshome, OP stated earlier in thread keeping 1 or 3 dogs to train for personal/family use as service dogs;  1 or 2 dogs to be trained for donation to service dog organization; and rest placed in responsible pet homes.  AS OP said, not all puppies will test out as appropriate evn with the most thoughtfully planned litter.

I am not advocating breeding unregistered dogs.  In fact, up to a year ago, I may have been horrified at what the OP wrote.  But, that was before I met three people with service dogs. My eyes were truly opened and the OP is right when stated these well trained dogs are truly "gifts" in every sense of the word.

I did talk to the people with these dogs and 1 was registered and two were not registered and one was  a mixed breed.  2 were german shepherds. One had no history and the other dog is owned by a member of my GSDCA local club. This dog was bred from ASL by an ASL breeder. The member has been partners in this particular breeding program for a long time. She had hands on knowledge of the dogs involved. I don't know how many puppies she went through before she found an appropriate puppy to do the work. They don't breed for service dogs but show dogs. I can find out more if there is real interest in how these service dogs comes to be...

I looked into some service dog breeding programs and it seems at the beginning they went for health and temperament..period. How esle would you tell if a dog is worthy to be bred for service dogs. Most of our dogs do not have specific pedigrees that say this dog can answer phones; can discrminate between sounds to help owner; can get their medicine if it falls, can ignore all distractions and attend their owners needs in public setting, etc. How would you be able to tell all that from a breed survey report or any kind of competition titles?

I think the fact the OP has ALREADY trained a service dog and is breeding one litter to train dogs for others is commendable. Obviously, she did health checks as well. I hope that a female is suitable to be kept as breeding stock from this litter and might be able to continue a service dog breeding program for the OP.

It is a shame that the GSD is no longer the breed of choice for service dog organizations.  There ARE dogs out there that can do it.

Maybe if someone could provide the OP with detaisl for Fidelco breeding program she can touch base with them...I admit to ignorance in this area.

Sara

"I looked into some service dog breeding programs and it seems at the beginning they went for health and temperament..period. How esle would you tell if a dog is worthy to be bred for service dogs. "

Well, because what you see expressed in any given dog is less than half the dog's actual genetic makeup.  About half of a dog's genes are not expressed, and the genes that are not expressed can and will be passed on to the offspring.  (I'm allowing for genes expressing incompletely or in combination, which is why I said "about half.)  In addition training makes up a percentage of what you will see in a given dog's behavior.  Add that to the fact that a pup gets 50% of its genes from the other parent, and any given organism will actually express 25% or less of what you see in a single parent.  It's not the registration status, it's the ability to study the pedigree and see what is in the genes that we are not seeing in the dog in question.  Breeding a dog just because you like what you see in that dog is breeding blind without the ability to study the other dogs in the pedigree.