Strong sit and bark - Page 4

Her name is Amuk von Karthago.

I did not put in her pedigree yet but here is a link to the parents.

PDB Mating Test

Lee

Oh very nice!    Looks like a littermate sister to your dog has been added:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/643658.html

Lee...nice pedigree....there is a nice litter being whelped later this month in the US...

Agent vom Wolfsheim x Juma von der Staatsmacht....

Kennel Staatsmacht is moving to the US!!!!!!

 @Sue,

You wrote:
"it's not something I am good enough to put into words"

A very good trainer once told me that if I could not articulate why I was doing something then I did not have a good enough understanding of what I was doing to be doing it.

Let's pretend you are a judge. Let's also pretend that Mr. Murphy is a GSD, and that the helper in the blind in the BB video is a man rather than a ball.

Which dog is more correct? Consider whether the correctness is there because of what the dog is or because of what he has been conditioned to do. 
Which dog is showing us his soul? 

Again Mr Murphy's H & B is so faulty he would not pass the exercise nor would he pass any guarding phase beyond the outs. 

 As far as the dogs in the Bellon video, I would have to see how they do the exercise with a good, strong helper before I make a determination as to how they handle pressure and aggression from the man.  I think I have already said more than once  I don't think the exercise is correct if the dog is  speaking for his toy.  If the helper in the blind is soft and does not press the dogs correctly I can see this too.  When I do, I know i am watching someone who is more concerned with helping the dog attain titles by perhaps masking or hiding weakness than working the dog fair and square, and that's not what we are talking about here.  We are talking about being able to see a dog's heart and soul,  how a dog handles the H&B and guarding beyond the out, when faced with an excellent   helper.

If your premise is there is a big problem in the breed because too many are more concerned with titles and breeding and money than good dogs, I already said there is much I agree with you, and I think this is a very true issue.  BUT it is an issue primarily seen in the show lines not the working lines.  We working line aficionados are a much smaller group than the huge and powerful contingent of show line aficionados, but I think if you were more familiar with working lines and  schutzhund you might not be quite so disdainful when it comes to the breed and schutzhund in general.  No sport is perfect and it is a mistake to breed to titles, but that goes without saying, everyone knows it.


Thank you for pointing out to me I must not be a good trainer if I can't articulate what I am talking about, probably why I'll never be a judge, but guess what - I know a good GSD when I see one.  Some things can't be gleaned from videos or a message board, you have to actually see it, and train some,  to know it.   OK, I'm out, I gotta go do something clumsy with the dogs.  Unfortunately it won't be much more than throwing the ball, as  I am recovering from surgery this week.

But if you get a chance,  tell me, are you Jeff's girlfriend?  Once on another message board when he was given a short vacation from the board, someone named Stephanie suddenly appeared as soon as Jeff was bounced.  She wrote exactly like you do as I recall.  I was told she was his girlfriend. 

Hey Sue in CC!

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger if you can not articulate what can not be articulated.  The subleties of behaviour, what is observable, that might distinguish one dog from another might be so ephemeral as to cause Koos to refer to it as the "soul" of the dog.  I've no problem with that.

For the most part I have enjoyed this discussion between you all as to the various considerations of what schutzhund can and does reveal about a dog's character as well as what it can't and doesn't show with absolute clarity or certainty.  Some folks apparently think that the whole "game" is a wash.  Okay.

There is a voice present here which is eerily reminiscent of Jeff O's.  I'm not so sure about the tone, seems a bit subdued and, if not entirely cordial, at least not as shrill.  The content is remarkably similar though.  Ah, yet another mystery of the faceless world of the cyber-sphere.

SteveO

 @Sue,

A quote from Mrs. Roosevelt for you: "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."

You wrote:
"AGain Mr Murphy's H & B is so faulty he would not pass the exercize"
For educational purposes, would you be so kind as to point out what exactly is faulty?

Per the Bellon video: Do you think these dogs' trial performances were helped by the exercize being shaped this way?

I cannot believe someone who puts themselves out there as an expert schutzhund critic does not understand  why if a GSD guarded the way Mr Murphy did, he would not pass.

Is insulting me with your Roosevelt quote your round about way of saying yes, you are the person I think you are?  Anyway, my dear old departed  mommie once taught me to never get into a stink fight with a skunk because no matter what I would always loose.    If you can somehow manage to control yourself, tone down your arrogance and stop with the insults,  in every post,  I might decide you are worth teaching something to, as well as learning from  and talking to, until that day comes, I am through addressing you.

Forgive my less that tolerant tone today, I am not feeling so good, perhaps we should leave this discussion for another day.

Mr Murphy's H & B is so faulty he would not pass the exercise" For educational purposes, would you be so kind as to point out what exactly is faulty?


ron writes: he continually bothers the helper by putting his feet on him....:-) does that suffice?

the hold and bark is a difficult exercise for most dogs and handler...Not knowing what you want to accomplish and how to achieve it is paramount to failure. Meaningful barking comes from defense....usually a dog is taught the exercise in prey mode....I prefer starting with suspicion....!

I don't know that the original example of a "modern style" of hold and bark is a good example. For that to be the case, it would have to be considered a desirable and exemplary example.

Perhaps Javir's H&B is a better example:

www.youtube.com/watch