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by ALPHAPUP on 25 June 2010 - 02:06
Gustav.. you make a Profound point ... a very very profound commentary .. So [ Rhetorically ] -- and why have you seen all those things you have in those titled GSDs and on a statistical basis , how many times [ i know how many times I have .. and laughed to myself ]?? .. ..And if one is smart enough to know the answer.. then you are prudent enough to realize .. : it won't stop ... so back we go to the question ? what makes a [working] GSD breed worthy ?? and in 10 years you will probably see the thread revisited but , asking : " Just what makes a GSD a GSD ?? ".
by Gustav on 25 June 2010 - 04:06
Alphapup, And as I said " The criteria to breed should be based on the physical/mental ability of a German Shepherd to work" ....I agree with your synopsis about the breed for the future, because I saw the same thing happening to the American Show GS in the early 70's when I left and predicted they would dismantle this breed with their emphasis on sidegait and Lance. Well, the same has and will happen to the German Showlines in the future because they are pursuing the same equation just with different emphasis. May take longer BECAUSE of the Sch part, but nonetheless the genetic bottleneck will win in the end.
I continue to be a lone wolf in the wild lamenting these things because their is a whole Generation of people who truly believe and only know the German Shepherd as showlines and workinglines. They think they HAVE to be separate, and in their ignorance have become the current experts and breeders of repute in the world. So.....I continue to speak out and encourage people to breed for what the dog was made for instead of what people like to own or sell.
I continue to be a lone wolf in the wild lamenting these things because their is a whole Generation of people who truly believe and only know the German Shepherd as showlines and workinglines. They think they HAVE to be separate, and in their ignorance have become the current experts and breeders of repute in the world. So.....I continue to speak out and encourage people to breed for what the dog was made for instead of what people like to own or sell.
by steve1 on 25 June 2010 - 06:06
Gustav
The point i am trying to get across is this, If you have a Dog who works in the top rank in the ScHh sport i.e WUSV level or near so that dog should be a stable,well adjusted dog Courageous and its temperament tested, Along with all that the dog has perfect grades for Hips and Elbows and is korclassed 1 or 11, Yet you get people on here like Judron55 knocking such dogs for breeding yet according to the rules of Europe they have passed the test of breed survey fully and as you know a fair bit of work to get that breed survey they do not give it out like sweeties
Otherwise there should be a total ban on all Dogs who practice the ScHh Sport total over here in Europe and the USA, and only breed from dogs which work in different areas, However i may well be wrong on this but i think correct Detection dogs are not bred at all not at least in there working life it messes there job of work up
Judron55
Do you breed Dogs yourself or have you bred these dogs in the past, if so what Qualifications do these breeding dogs have i would be interested to know, and do you have a named Kennel
Steve1
The point i am trying to get across is this, If you have a Dog who works in the top rank in the ScHh sport i.e WUSV level or near so that dog should be a stable,well adjusted dog Courageous and its temperament tested, Along with all that the dog has perfect grades for Hips and Elbows and is korclassed 1 or 11, Yet you get people on here like Judron55 knocking such dogs for breeding yet according to the rules of Europe they have passed the test of breed survey fully and as you know a fair bit of work to get that breed survey they do not give it out like sweeties
Otherwise there should be a total ban on all Dogs who practice the ScHh Sport total over here in Europe and the USA, and only breed from dogs which work in different areas, However i may well be wrong on this but i think correct Detection dogs are not bred at all not at least in there working life it messes there job of work up
Judron55
Do you breed Dogs yourself or have you bred these dogs in the past, if so what Qualifications do these breeding dogs have i would be interested to know, and do you have a named Kennel
Steve1
by SitasMom on 25 June 2010 - 06:06
conformation -
I was not referring to the show lines conformation as the ideal............
I was referring to conformation that gives a dog the ability to work and to live a long life without falling apart.
I was also referring to conformation that still maintaines the beauty of the GSD.
No wobbly hind legs, no hock walking, no collie heads, no straight pasterns, no east west fronts, and the like.... and still be identifiable as a GSD...
work -
SchH is not the only type of work a GSD can do......
Herding, Therapy, Police K-9, French Ring, Search and Rescue, Therapy, Agility, Obedience, Leading the Blind..... there are so many ways in which a dog can be trained to work.
Hero is out of a double VA breeding, he has an excellent temperament, lots of prey drive and is able to tell a good guy from a thug (he has proved this in real life), is SG rated has good hips and elbows. He very willing to worker and has the endurance to go on forever.
This breeding is to prove he can actually impregnate a bitch before I spend thousands of dollars to send him away to get him titled. There are so many horror stores of dogs that have been sent out for training, titled and then come back only to find out that they are not able to reproduce. Yes I had his sperm checked, but just because there are lots of them and they swim doesn't mean they can get inside an egg.
Both Hero and Sita can climb a 6' wall, they can jump a 3' wall, they are not afraid of gunfire, they have plenty of drive, neither are afraid of their own shadows, and they are not so hyper active that thier pads are raw. Once this proving litter is done, they will both be back into training.
I was not referring to the show lines conformation as the ideal............
I was referring to conformation that gives a dog the ability to work and to live a long life without falling apart.
I was also referring to conformation that still maintaines the beauty of the GSD.
No wobbly hind legs, no hock walking, no collie heads, no straight pasterns, no east west fronts, and the like.... and still be identifiable as a GSD...
work -
SchH is not the only type of work a GSD can do......
Herding, Therapy, Police K-9, French Ring, Search and Rescue, Therapy, Agility, Obedience, Leading the Blind..... there are so many ways in which a dog can be trained to work.
Hero is out of a double VA breeding, he has an excellent temperament, lots of prey drive and is able to tell a good guy from a thug (he has proved this in real life), is SG rated has good hips and elbows. He very willing to worker and has the endurance to go on forever.
This breeding is to prove he can actually impregnate a bitch before I spend thousands of dollars to send him away to get him titled. There are so many horror stores of dogs that have been sent out for training, titled and then come back only to find out that they are not able to reproduce. Yes I had his sperm checked, but just because there are lots of them and they swim doesn't mean they can get inside an egg.
Both Hero and Sita can climb a 6' wall, they can jump a 3' wall, they are not afraid of gunfire, they have plenty of drive, neither are afraid of their own shadows, and they are not so hyper active that thier pads are raw. Once this proving litter is done, they will both be back into training.
by judron55 on 25 June 2010 - 11:06
steve1....you can't point to 1 time that I said anything negative about SV breeding requirements.....you continue to misrepresent my statements and then ask me to comment. go play somewhere else. You're wasting my time:-)
by ALPHAPUP on 25 June 2010 - 12:06
sitasmom .. i have a small point of contention with your post , although i agree what you post .. NO.. Not just the conformation that gives the ability for the dog to work !! The standard [ conformation ] of the GSD should exist that also makes it different from another breed . I have had malinois along with over 22 GSDs . i have trained rotties , dobermans , aussies etc etc. .. they ALL WORK .. but THEY ARE NOT GSDS !! MY mals work Mentally and Physically so Different than my GSDs ! I cannot elaborate - it would be a seminar for days !! Gustav -- i know what you mean .. i feel like a lone wolf too with my outlooks . But i also know BEST of the best in the world with the GSD now begining preaching our same views. I believe there is growing frustration . Seems now a day if you do not have the VA 1,2,3 ,4 GSD you go no where. What a shame to the breed. Also ... thank you for bringing to light the course of the American GSD .. worst structure of a Canid in the world &, behavioral instincts bred right out .. and let me renew the course of the " white GSD" .. to maintain the White .. the gene pool has been made so so small to keep "white" .. yet many think these dogs are breed worthy .. don't they ? .. a gene pool so small , most are just SO SHARP ! BTW .. Gustav .. oh oh ... the gene pool of the CURRENT GSD getting [?IS} so small .. IS THIS THE FUTURE - like the White GSD , the AMERICAN GSD . ?? OH BOY .. there does NOT have to be a show vs working line .. AND >> IS THERE ENOUGH GENETIC DIVERSITY STILL LEFT ?? i don't know !!** -- [ your comments?] but i do know .. I have produced SHOW LINE X WORKING LINE GSDS with v structure who at 10 months old did protection work on full body suit !! . not knowing the breeding , i had police officers raising eyebrows at the GSDS and their owners [ sold as family dogs, would have been happy if they were Suited for S & R ] . the success , is simply : i stuck to the STANDARD AND OUTCROSSED . Form is tied to function . isn't that a hoot .. show line progeny Ursus. Yasko. Larus bred by only following a Standard .. eyed by policemen .
by Steve Schuler on 25 June 2010 - 12:06
Good thread going on here with a variey of inputs.
Here in the USA it seems that, more often than not, one of the de facto criterion for "breed worthiness" (and/or.marketability?) is that both parents be imported with their credentials in place. That is, to be imported as adults and to already be conformationally rated, koer evaluated, and schutzhund titled. I realize that, for the most part, there are some very practical considerations for this being the case. The process of going through an S.V. type of 'breed worthiness" regimen within the United States can be very difficult and prohibitively expensive. Of course this depends very much on a persons locale, the resources that are locally available and the financial resources of the person pursuing that end. What may be beyond my circumstantial or financial means may be entirely accessible to someone else. I doubt if any thoughtful person would deny that, despite it's shortcomings at times, the S.V. type of system does help insure the overall integrity of the breed.
What is evident to all, both here and abroad, is that the GSD has been subdivided into a variety of different types. Beyond the showline/workingline divide there are other subdivisions as well. There can be little doubt that some people are entirely confident that whatever their breeding goals are is what should be considered the "True German Shepherd Dog". Well, at least when it comes down to marketing their pups or talking about their own dog, that is. It does not bother me that the breed is subdivided. Given the complex world that we live in and the many varied "jobs" or "work" or "roles" that a German Shepherd might be called on to perform and social environments that any individual dog might need to be well suited for, I think, necessitates these subdivisions and a variety of temperamental attributes. I am not opposed to dogs that have been bred to perform well in the Sport of Schutzhund, typically referred as "Workingline" and occasionally as "Sportline", although I doubt my ability to live happily with the energy levels that many of these dogs are purported to have. Likewise people who breed "Showline" GSDs and promote them as ideal family companions, typically possessing lower energy levels than their "working" counterparts, are not being dishonest. From my perspective though, when a large percentage of these dogs are unable to pass the courage test, a vital temperamental component has been ignored in breeding. For my purposes and from my perspective, this is very much to the detriment of the breed.
And so in some respects it seems that breeding to extremes in both cases has resulted in a something of a void for what might suit my desires and needs as the "Golden Middle". Of course this "Golden Middle" is an entirely subjective ideal, again specific to the purpose for which any individual dog is employed. Seeing Eye Dog, SAR Dog, Full Time Scent Detection Dog, Personal Protection Dog, Single or Dual Purpose Patrol Dog, Watch Dog, High Performance Competitive Schtuzhund Dog, High End Competitve Conformation Dog or All Around Family Companion Dog, to some degree or another each of these "occupations" is best achieved by dogs with somewhat different types or blends of temperamental qualities and attributes.
(Continued below)
Here in the USA it seems that, more often than not, one of the de facto criterion for "breed worthiness" (and/or.marketability?) is that both parents be imported with their credentials in place. That is, to be imported as adults and to already be conformationally rated, koer evaluated, and schutzhund titled. I realize that, for the most part, there are some very practical considerations for this being the case. The process of going through an S.V. type of 'breed worthiness" regimen within the United States can be very difficult and prohibitively expensive. Of course this depends very much on a persons locale, the resources that are locally available and the financial resources of the person pursuing that end. What may be beyond my circumstantial or financial means may be entirely accessible to someone else. I doubt if any thoughtful person would deny that, despite it's shortcomings at times, the S.V. type of system does help insure the overall integrity of the breed.
What is evident to all, both here and abroad, is that the GSD has been subdivided into a variety of different types. Beyond the showline/workingline divide there are other subdivisions as well. There can be little doubt that some people are entirely confident that whatever their breeding goals are is what should be considered the "True German Shepherd Dog". Well, at least when it comes down to marketing their pups or talking about their own dog, that is. It does not bother me that the breed is subdivided. Given the complex world that we live in and the many varied "jobs" or "work" or "roles" that a German Shepherd might be called on to perform and social environments that any individual dog might need to be well suited for, I think, necessitates these subdivisions and a variety of temperamental attributes. I am not opposed to dogs that have been bred to perform well in the Sport of Schutzhund, typically referred as "Workingline" and occasionally as "Sportline", although I doubt my ability to live happily with the energy levels that many of these dogs are purported to have. Likewise people who breed "Showline" GSDs and promote them as ideal family companions, typically possessing lower energy levels than their "working" counterparts, are not being dishonest. From my perspective though, when a large percentage of these dogs are unable to pass the courage test, a vital temperamental component has been ignored in breeding. For my purposes and from my perspective, this is very much to the detriment of the breed.
And so in some respects it seems that breeding to extremes in both cases has resulted in a something of a void for what might suit my desires and needs as the "Golden Middle". Of course this "Golden Middle" is an entirely subjective ideal, again specific to the purpose for which any individual dog is employed. Seeing Eye Dog, SAR Dog, Full Time Scent Detection Dog, Personal Protection Dog, Single or Dual Purpose Patrol Dog, Watch Dog, High Performance Competitive Schtuzhund Dog, High End Competitve Conformation Dog or All Around Family Companion Dog, to some degree or another each of these "occupations" is best achieved by dogs with somewhat different types or blends of temperamental qualities and attributes.
(Continued below)
by Steve Schuler on 25 June 2010 - 12:06
(Continued)
I guess my point in writing all of this is that I think there is no simple definition of "breed worthiness", as has been previoulsy stated in this thread. The Breed Standard is not an engineering blue print which one can follow in detail to produce the "Ideal German Shepherd". There never has been, and never will be, a single vision of what constitues this mythical creature. And I suppose that is as it should be.
SteveO
P.S.
I am not a breeder, just another fan of the German Shepherd in all of it's forms and varieties.
I guess my point in writing all of this is that I think there is no simple definition of "breed worthiness", as has been previoulsy stated in this thread. The Breed Standard is not an engineering blue print which one can follow in detail to produce the "Ideal German Shepherd". There never has been, and never will be, a single vision of what constitues this mythical creature. And I suppose that is as it should be.
SteveO
P.S.
I am not a breeder, just another fan of the German Shepherd in all of it's forms and varieties.
by steve1 on 25 June 2010 - 13:06
judron55
I asked you a question do you have a Kennel name and do you or have you bred German Shepherd Dogs
A simple question to answer because i would like to see your website if you have one, Nothing wrong in that
Of course everyone waists your time if they do not agree with what you say, So big man, what do you have to hide by not telling me
Perhaps one of the other Guys know on here if you are loath to say so But there is no reason for you not too say
Steve1
I asked you a question do you have a Kennel name and do you or have you bred German Shepherd Dogs
A simple question to answer because i would like to see your website if you have one, Nothing wrong in that
Of course everyone waists your time if they do not agree with what you say, So big man, what do you have to hide by not telling me
Perhaps one of the other Guys know on here if you are loath to say so But there is no reason for you not too say
Steve1
by Gustav on 25 June 2010 - 17:06
Steve Schuler, Your post gives a good commentary on the breed. I have not articulated what is breedworthy, but rather what is not breedworthy. Assessing breedworthiness is like training dogs. There are many different ways to train dogs and all of them work depending on who's doing the training. The same with determining breedworthiness. At a minimum I think a person has to have experience, knowledge, and application in the history/legacy of the breed. You also have to know bloodlines and what they produce and how they will marry up with the other line. Factor in this the aspect of genetics and recessives and it is very challenging even if you are knowledgable. I can't give you an exact formula for what is breedworthy on paper. It takes more information for me to make that kind of decision. I need the historical(bloodlines,parents,etc), I need the empirical(titles,tests, certs), and I need an assessment(visual) from myself or somebody that I trust their knowledge and competence. Some other people need more info and some need less. There is no right or wrong, only results that validate your operation.JMO
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