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by pod on 02 September 2011 - 17:09
Ah Christine, good to see you!!! :)
Just had a quick look through your post and yes, I like your thinking. Will read through propoerly later.... after dinner.
Just had a quick look through your post and yes, I like your thinking. Will read through propoerly later.... after dinner.
by vonissk on 02 September 2011 - 17:09
I would like to make a statement and then I have a question.
Thanks for the " tables" Christine, very helpful to us genetically challenged!! The statement I was going to make has to do with what you listed as an homozygous sable with toemarks. A member of this board told me that was impossible, that if they carried tarheels and toemarks, they had to carry the black recessive. I argued and argued because I had been told different by my mentor and because my boy has those marking and he is homozygous. Yes I will agree they are lighten then some I have seen but he has them none the less.
Now this is my question. Does a bi color always have toe marks and tarheels? The same person I mentioned above says yes. Again my mentor says no. I have seen many pics of people calling their dogs bi and they didn't have those markings. So what is the real truth? Thank you in advance.
Thanks for the " tables" Christine, very helpful to us genetically challenged!! The statement I was going to make has to do with what you listed as an homozygous sable with toemarks. A member of this board told me that was impossible, that if they carried tarheels and toemarks, they had to carry the black recessive. I argued and argued because I had been told different by my mentor and because my boy has those marking and he is homozygous. Yes I will agree they are lighten then some I have seen but he has them none the less.
Now this is my question. Does a bi color always have toe marks and tarheels? The same person I mentioned above says yes. Again my mentor says no. I have seen many pics of people calling their dogs bi and they didn't have those markings. So what is the real truth? Thank you in advance.
by BlackthornGSD on 02 September 2011 - 18:09
My understanding is that homozygous sables often *do* have toemarks. But, maybe, not always? They definitely can. Maybe this is a function of the melanization modifier.
The color pattern I am calling "bicolor" always has toemarks and tarheels (and black underside); the tan areas are very distinctive and specifically located. The color I am calling "blanket back" is very dark but does not have toemarks/tarheels, usually has light underside of tail and chest; has indistinct areas of tan/brown on face, behind ears.
Bicolor (carries black recessive)
"Bright" bicolor (I believe does not carry black recessive)
or
Blanket back (probably carries black recessive)
this blanket-back female definitely carries the black recessive...
This is the female in my first example (never produced black)
Sable who produces bicolor (this is the dam in my 2nd example; never produced black)
Hope this helps at least illustrate where I am starting from in trying to describe the colors/patterns.
Christine
The color pattern I am calling "bicolor" always has toemarks and tarheels (and black underside); the tan areas are very distinctive and specifically located. The color I am calling "blanket back" is very dark but does not have toemarks/tarheels, usually has light underside of tail and chest; has indistinct areas of tan/brown on face, behind ears.
Bicolor (carries black recessive)
"Bright" bicolor (I believe does not carry black recessive)
or
Blanket back (probably carries black recessive)
this blanket-back female definitely carries the black recessive...
This is the female in my first example (never produced black)
Sable who produces bicolor (this is the dam in my 2nd example; never produced black)
Hope this helps at least illustrate where I am starting from in trying to describe the colors/patterns.
Christine
by darylehret on 02 September 2011 - 18:09
It's difficult for me to view all of this and comment about it over my smartphone. With your newest proposal, is it possible for a black sable parent and a bicolor parent to produce black and tan offspring?
by vonissk on 02 September 2011 - 20:09
OK thanks a lot for the pics. So what I am understanding is the bi color with the toe marks and tarheels carries the black recessive but the one described as bright does not? I notcied that both those dogs had the tarheels but not the toemarks. Once upon a time I thought I had the blk/tan figured out. In comes the melanistic thing so I realize I knew-or know-nothing. I sorta have the sables figured out. But this bi color thing is really hard for me to understand. I'm wondering how woulkd you know in a litter--especially newborn, whether you had a blk/tan or a bi color? Whew is it cocktail hour yet? LOL
by pod on 02 September 2011 - 20:09
Daryl, I'm not sure what you mean by "newest proposal" I've tried to explain the findings outlined in the paper in various ways to try to make them more understandable.
I'm not that familiar with breeding data of GSDs, at least not nearly the experience of yourself and Christine. If you know it to be possible to get what you describe as B&T from black sable x bicolour, then any suggested modifier genes should cater for this. All the researchers are saying at present is that saddle, B&T and bicolour are all the same allele on the A locus, and the variation within these is controlled by other genes/modifyers.
I'm not that familiar with breeding data of GSDs, at least not nearly the experience of yourself and Christine. If you know it to be possible to get what you describe as B&T from black sable x bicolour, then any suggested modifier genes should cater for this. All the researchers are saying at present is that saddle, B&T and bicolour are all the same allele on the A locus, and the variation within these is controlled by other genes/modifyers.
by pod on 02 September 2011 - 21:09
Very interesting Christine. As I've said I don't have that much knowledge of the breeding data in GSDs and it's great to see your ideas. Must say I'm surprised to see that saddle can carry rec black. Have you known of this in more than one dog?
I've long since had the belief that there are multiple genes at work to give the vast range of pigment distribution, and of course the presence of mask (E locus) has a major influence in the GSD.
I've long since had the belief that there are multiple genes at work to give the vast range of pigment distribution, and of course the presence of mask (E locus) has a major influence in the GSD.
by Elkoorr on 02 September 2011 - 21:09
Elkoor, you are saying that Arko's sable parents both carry a black recessive, AND one (or both) carry the bicolor gene?
Dont know for certain. I would have to sit down and go through all those postings. I assumed that the dam is black sable/black and the sire is sable/bicolor. Arko would be bicolor/black. The sire has black toemarks and dark hocks; and even though he looks alot black, his under coat is grey besides black stripe on back and belly. Dam too has black back stripe and belly.
Fact is in a litter of 6 pups there was one bicolor with the typical markings. And one pup had a brindle look to it for the first weeks, which turned into a blackish pattern sable with taner legs and chest, no black back stripe (under coat) but black toes and dark hocks. She is also very masculine looking. The other pups were all dark sable with a slight variance in the darkness of under coat.
I am no genetic expert...lol But maybe this description helps you to conclude on this example? In the fathers line there is black, as well as black and tan as it looks like from the pics. Dam predominantly sable, but lots of pics missing. Appears to be some black and tan some generations back in there....so possibility of black being carried down?
Dont know for certain. I would have to sit down and go through all those postings. I assumed that the dam is black sable/black and the sire is sable/bicolor. Arko would be bicolor/black. The sire has black toemarks and dark hocks; and even though he looks alot black, his under coat is grey besides black stripe on back and belly. Dam too has black back stripe and belly.
Fact is in a litter of 6 pups there was one bicolor with the typical markings. And one pup had a brindle look to it for the first weeks, which turned into a blackish pattern sable with taner legs and chest, no black back stripe (under coat) but black toes and dark hocks. She is also very masculine looking. The other pups were all dark sable with a slight variance in the darkness of under coat.
I am no genetic expert...lol But maybe this description helps you to conclude on this example? In the fathers line there is black, as well as black and tan as it looks like from the pics. Dam predominantly sable, but lots of pics missing. Appears to be some black and tan some generations back in there....so possibility of black being carried down?
by pod on 02 September 2011 - 22:09
I think you're correct Elkoorr, both Arko's parents can't be recessive black carriers, one of them at least has to carry tanpoint at
by BlackthornGSD on 03 September 2011 - 00:09
VonSisk--"what I am understanding is the bi color with the toe marks and tarheels carries the black recessive but the one described as bright does not? "
The "bright" bicolors actually do have toemarks, but they tend to be minimal black lines.
You can kind of see it on this picture of Hunter --
I'm wondering how woulkd you know in a litter--especially newborn, whether you had a blk/tan or a bi color?
It's really hard to be sure until the dog is mature--unless you know the genetics of both parents. The newborn puppy may appear solid black except for tan under the tail. Sometimes, though, you aren't positive until the dog is an adult.
In an 8 week old puppy, the bicolors generally don't have any tan on the cheeks or behind the ears. Sometimes they'll have tan eyebrows and throats, but often they have very dark faces with no tan.
The "bright" bicolors actually do have toemarks, but they tend to be minimal black lines.
You can kind of see it on this picture of Hunter --
I'm wondering how woulkd you know in a litter--especially newborn, whether you had a blk/tan or a bi color?
It's really hard to be sure until the dog is mature--unless you know the genetics of both parents. The newborn puppy may appear solid black except for tan under the tail. Sometimes, though, you aren't positive until the dog is an adult.
In an 8 week old puppy, the bicolors generally don't have any tan on the cheeks or behind the ears. Sometimes they'll have tan eyebrows and throats, but often they have very dark faces with no tan.
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