Questions & answers about GSD structure/ conformation - Page 4

Clarifying:  "But in the diagram it looks like the "down" pasterns are actually desired."

Down pasterns are NOT desired and are a fault. 

There are specific terms for specific attributes, because without this discussion won't be coherent. 

From the standard: "The pasterns are strong and and springy and angulated at approximately a 24-degree angle from the vertical."

That description in no way describes a "down" pastern.  Maybe this will help.  http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/downedpasterns.html

Just trying to get us all on the same page as to terminology.

Thanks Tess.  Many pasterns are more than 24 degrees by the look of it.

Could be, and that would be a fault just like any other fault.

But compared to say, a Fox Terrier, the GSD has a different pastern, and I was just explaining why.  Most people now come to a breed and have no idea why its form is the way it is.  They see one thing and think, "Oh, it's supposed to be that way," when maybe it's not supposed to be that way at all. 

The old "if some is good, more is better," has I think applied to pasterns - because people don't know WHY a longer, sloping pastern is desirable, they think longer is better.  It never occurs to them that some of those dogs may have won in spite of those pasterns, not because of them.

In my question I'm comparing the GSD to other breeds, therefore "down" (note the parens) is not an incorrect term.  They are "down" when compared to many other breeds.  IE if I was looking at a Malinois, ACD, Aussie, etc I'd say the dog was down in the pasterns.  They may not be "down" for a GSD, instead they are correct per the standard, but my question was specifically that in relation to other breeds, the GSD standard asks for dog that is more down (more angled if you prefer) in the pasterns, why? 

You answered that question (thank you), although I think the answer is more complicated then "For a dog that was originally designed to tend sheep all day, a short, stiff pastern would decrease the working life of that dog. The longer, flexible pastern absorbs more shock and also helps the animal have a longer stride than the short-pasterned dogs. Again, better for a dog who's job is covering a lot of ground without either tiring or sustaining injury." needs a 22 degree pastern.  Most of the other herding breeds, which were also designed to tend sheep all day, do not have that angle to their pasterns.  Instead their standards call for a very slight slope, But they don't have the other angles in their bodies either. 

Perhaps that is where the pastern angle comes from?  That in relationship to the other angles in the GSD body, 22 degrees is the angle needed to work correctly?  While many of the other herding dogs (excluding the BC, which is another body style all together) aren't as angulated elsewhere, and therefore don't need as much angle in the pastern either for the correct shock absorption.

Anatomical terminology is standard.

I understand what you are saying in comparing breeds, but if you say a GSD is "down in the pasterns," that has a specific meaning. 

It doesn't matter if you are commenting on a GSD standing alone or a GSD standing next to an Aussie.  The GSD either is "down in the pasterns" or it's not.  I'm not nit-picking semantics here, it's just that it's important to be on the same page.  If for instance we're talking about 'distal' and 'proximal,' unless everyone agrees on the definitions of these words there's going to be a disaster in the hospital.

"Most of the other herding breeds, which were also designed to tend sheep all day"

Not true.

Take the Shetland Sheepdog.  A herding breed that in no way "tended sheep all day."  It's job was to drive away straying sheep from near the house.  It didn't need to trot all day.

Take the Border Collie.  Another herding breed.  This breed was developed to have an entirely different style than the GSD.  

The GSD is a tending dog, not a herding dog.

Take the Corgi.  Another herding breed with a different method of moving stock and the different physical structure that goes with it.  They didn't trot all day either.

There is a tremendous difference in the various breeds we now in the U.S. call "Herding" breeds.  Many of them weren't ever used on sheep at all.  As you know until quite recently historically they were simply called "Working" breeds.  Depending on the country, the geography, and multiple other factors, breeds were developed for different reasons and therefore with different physical structure.

Neither the Corgi nor the Sheltie nor the BC were created to do the long continuous trotting work that the GSD was for.

A GSD doesn't have the "eye" that a good BC has.  It's not supposed to. The BC wouldn't have a use for that "eye" if it was a tending dog.  BC's manuever their flocks, whereas the GSD's job, although it did include moving them along roads and over bridges, was keeping large flocks contained in large unfenced areas.  That's a lot of leg work requiring a lot of long-strided, fluid movement for best efficiency.  Unlike the BC, they weren't heading into the hills of the British Isles gathering up their flocks.

And yes, I agree that it's easy to find GSD with too long, too weak pasterns.  But we're talking the standard here.  And the standard's ideal makes perfect sense for the type of work the dog was bred to do.

Because some people think "the longer the better" must be right, it's because they don't understand anatomy and don't understand that too long can mean too weak.  We all need to educate ourselves as to WHY the standard is what it is, no matter what our breed.

hello Ibrahim. I think we are trying to tie too many things together too soon and making it a little more difficult.

All we want to discuss at this point are the two bones that make up the shoulder, the angle these bones form where they meet and then next the effects that the angle and length of these bones have on movement.

From the standard:
The shoulder blade should be long with an oblique placement (the angle at 45 degrees) and lying flat against the body. The upper arm joins the shoulder blade in an approximate right angle.

Tess, maldobe asked a good question and IMO only you explained it very well. Each breed has it's own purpose and it's own standard developed by those who at one time knew the requirements of the dogs purpose very well. It just happens that those who developed the GSD were so precise that they put it down in exact degree of angle they had found optimal in the best dogs.

anyway, a lot of this is just my opinion and I hope does not cause too much gnashing of teeth. Can you imagine this discussion taking place a couple of months ago.

Rik

It was a shock to me, having only seen Border Collie herding in Ireland, to learn that a lot of the German sheep tending meant that it was the dog's job to constantly trot up and down between the sheep and the crops so that the sheep would stay in their place and not get into other crops.  What endurance!

So it's no surprise that a dog with a Herding title does not have to do an AD in order to be breed surveyed.  The herding dog has put in many more miles than the AD dog.

From von Stephanitz:

"special pastures can no longer, as in former flourishing times, be reserved entirely for the use of sheep....we have only...the roadside...In [Northern Germany] the only pasture for sheep, until the end of the harvest, is generally the small strip of green bordering the narrow roads between the beet fields....In South West Germany the sheep pasture often borders on the vineyards, the hop gardens, and tobacco plantations which must also be completely protected.  Naturally every piece of ground that is cultivated must be protected; that is what the dog is there for.....He must first learn to walk in the "furrow," that is to say, to run up and down in the last furrow in front of the crop he has to protect."

More modern article here (from 1999):  http://mayanser.com/content/view/7/14/

Much of my knowledge of GSD conformation was enlarged by attending a Judging Seminar given by Orri Nordness.  He used stop-action video tape of GSD's to show the angle of the skeleton and how it effected movement.  Placing white tape on the dog from withers along the shoulderblade, and again from shoulderblade to the elbow... also on the rear legs... he paused the tape at full extention to show how the 90 degree shoulder provided the max reach, and the 90 on the rearr provided equal and fullest drive to propel the dog foward.

www.delacruz-germanshepherds.com/standardgermanshepherd.htm

this is an illustrated standard which Nordness illustrated.  It seems to cover a great deal that he included in his workshop (we're talking 25 years ago... lol).  We were then given the chance to judge classes of 5 dogs that afternoon, with a checklist of things we'd learned in the morning.  After the judging he then videotaped those same dogs and slowed down the movement and explained each dog's strengths and faults.  For several years after that I used video on each litter of puppies to better see their movements.  It's a handy aide.