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by Ace952 on 29 November 2010 - 21:11
Good points brought up.
I am a newbie so things bring up many questions. I always thought that breeders would want the dogs they placed to be titled (not a requirement but would be nice if possible by the owner) to show that what they are producing is quality. I see many breeders having repeat litters so I thought that they want people to title their dogs just to prove why they are having repeat litters. If you don't title dogs, how do you know if the litters that are being produced are good working dogs?
It was mentioned that sport dogs are not working dogs. As a newbie I thoughtt hat sport dogs were working dogs in that they had a job in terms of training often and competiting. The dog had something to do. If sport dogs are not working dogs then what classifies dogs as working dogs? Would it only be military, herding and Police K9's be the only "working dogs" out there today? Every other dog is either a sport or pet? I see that many breeders want their dogs to go to working homes so then what is a working home? Many people say that sport is runing the breed but if these dogs didn't have the "job" of sport what would they be doing to be considered working dogs?
I am a newbie so things bring up many questions. I always thought that breeders would want the dogs they placed to be titled (not a requirement but would be nice if possible by the owner) to show that what they are producing is quality. I see many breeders having repeat litters so I thought that they want people to title their dogs just to prove why they are having repeat litters. If you don't title dogs, how do you know if the litters that are being produced are good working dogs?
It was mentioned that sport dogs are not working dogs. As a newbie I thoughtt hat sport dogs were working dogs in that they had a job in terms of training often and competiting. The dog had something to do. If sport dogs are not working dogs then what classifies dogs as working dogs? Would it only be military, herding and Police K9's be the only "working dogs" out there today? Every other dog is either a sport or pet? I see that many breeders want their dogs to go to working homes so then what is a working home? Many people say that sport is runing the breed but if these dogs didn't have the "job" of sport what would they be doing to be considered working dogs?
by Jenni78 on 29 November 2010 - 21:11
Pack, I don't see the point in titling a PSD in SchH. If the handler wants to do it, fine. But so much of SchH is counterproductive to real work, I just don't see the point. There are so many ways for a dog to prove its worth, I just think it is so painfully narrow-minded to think no dog w/out SchH titles is a good dog. There are literally THOUSANDS of very good reasons people don't title their dogs. The day I send a dog to a SchH home over a better home where he/she won't be titled, it will be the last puppy I'll ever sell, because I will no longer be breeding for the "right" reasons, or at least what I feel are the right reasons and why I started.
A person who can judge temperament can judge temperament. It's not rocket science. I don't see too many people who really can. What they say their dog is and what I think their dog is are quite bipolar, much of the time. This happens frequently. It has not been my experience that participating in SchH. has automatically qualified someone to judge temperament and decide what is and is not a working dog.
Felloffher...if I went through my criteria, there would be a dozen people who would say "me too." My issue is to what degree they uphold these desires, for lack of a better way to explain it. Just like the term "good" is relative, much of what people SAY is the same, but when you look at the dogs, you can't believe you thought you and that person saw eye to eye. This is what makes it so difficult to explain. Some of it boils down to pure opinion. Whether I'm right or wrong, I have to do what I think is best, and so far, I've done ok. I don't have anyone hating me for sending them a crappy dog, lol. I am proud of my pups, though I don't talk much about them, and some have really accomplished quite a lot in a short time. I would put them up against just about anything else out there.
I have seen dogs' pics and pedigrees that I thought were impressive...then I met the dog and it turns out the dog has all sorts of physical flaws. I have heard people brag about how "strong" and "tough" their dogs are, then I come to find out their dog is afraid of its own shadow. And rather than say you love the dog anyway, but won't breed it, they make excuses for the dog, rationalize it by saying there's worse out there, and breed them over and over. This is why I never bred my male. All these years, I thought he was "too big" and maybe not structurally perfect, all because I'm HONEST. Well, it turns out that when his chest dropped he lost the slight easty/westy look in front, and lots of dogs are technically over-standard but given a pass. The more I studied and looked around, the more I realized I'd struck gold the first time around and was a total freaking moron for letting something as stupid as an inch stop me from letting this animal be bred. Live and learn.
I found out people photoshop, and people downright lie. They will say anything for a sale, and if its long distance, no one will be the wiser. Too many dogs are sold on reputation and not experience. People think it's ok and even cool sometimes for dogs to display behaviors that IMO, are the sign of an elevator not going all the way to the top, and they excuse it by saying the dog has "too much drive." Too much drive for what? A dog can have over the top drives in all aspects and still be stable. I try to breed dogs who are not dog aggressive or unstable with children. I try to attain a balance between strength of character and overly dominant or stubborn. I want superior intelligence and clear thinking at all times. No hectic behaviors or a dog who goes to its happy place under pressure. Must be thinking 100% of the time.
Felloffher....I think this probably should be in another thread....ooops.
A person who can judge temperament can judge temperament. It's not rocket science. I don't see too many people who really can. What they say their dog is and what I think their dog is are quite bipolar, much of the time. This happens frequently. It has not been my experience that participating in SchH. has automatically qualified someone to judge temperament and decide what is and is not a working dog.
Felloffher...if I went through my criteria, there would be a dozen people who would say "me too." My issue is to what degree they uphold these desires, for lack of a better way to explain it. Just like the term "good" is relative, much of what people SAY is the same, but when you look at the dogs, you can't believe you thought you and that person saw eye to eye. This is what makes it so difficult to explain. Some of it boils down to pure opinion. Whether I'm right or wrong, I have to do what I think is best, and so far, I've done ok. I don't have anyone hating me for sending them a crappy dog, lol. I am proud of my pups, though I don't talk much about them, and some have really accomplished quite a lot in a short time. I would put them up against just about anything else out there.
I have seen dogs' pics and pedigrees that I thought were impressive...then I met the dog and it turns out the dog has all sorts of physical flaws. I have heard people brag about how "strong" and "tough" their dogs are, then I come to find out their dog is afraid of its own shadow. And rather than say you love the dog anyway, but won't breed it, they make excuses for the dog, rationalize it by saying there's worse out there, and breed them over and over. This is why I never bred my male. All these years, I thought he was "too big" and maybe not structurally perfect, all because I'm HONEST. Well, it turns out that when his chest dropped he lost the slight easty/westy look in front, and lots of dogs are technically over-standard but given a pass. The more I studied and looked around, the more I realized I'd struck gold the first time around and was a total freaking moron for letting something as stupid as an inch stop me from letting this animal be bred. Live and learn.
I found out people photoshop, and people downright lie. They will say anything for a sale, and if its long distance, no one will be the wiser. Too many dogs are sold on reputation and not experience. People think it's ok and even cool sometimes for dogs to display behaviors that IMO, are the sign of an elevator not going all the way to the top, and they excuse it by saying the dog has "too much drive." Too much drive for what? A dog can have over the top drives in all aspects and still be stable. I try to breed dogs who are not dog aggressive or unstable with children. I try to attain a balance between strength of character and overly dominant or stubborn. I want superior intelligence and clear thinking at all times. No hectic behaviors or a dog who goes to its happy place under pressure. Must be thinking 100% of the time.
Felloffher....I think this probably should be in another thread....ooops.
by Jenni78 on 29 November 2010 - 21:11
Off to make cookies now. I'm cold and hungry, and done replying. I feel like a broken record; I've been saying this stuff for years.
Felloffher, if you want to, start a new topic about criteria besides the obvious and let's see what we get. Interesting topic, for sure.
Felloffher, if you want to, start a new topic about criteria besides the obvious and let's see what we get. Interesting topic, for sure.
by Ace952 on 29 November 2010 - 21:11
I think it is ok to be in this thread as it has a lot of good stuff in it.
by GSDPACK on 29 November 2010 - 22:11
Jenni,
I highly doubt you would breed your female to untitled male no matter how nice he would be. I know I wouldn't how in the hell am I going to explain the buyers these dogs are the best they can be if they cant even get a stupit title.
And that is my point!
Enjoy your cookies.. I cant bake to save my life!
P
I highly doubt you would breed your female to untitled male no matter how nice he would be. I know I wouldn't how in the hell am I going to explain the buyers these dogs are the best they can be if they cant even get a stupit title.
And that is my point!
Enjoy your cookies.. I cant bake to save my life!
P
by Jenni78 on 29 November 2010 - 23:11
But we weren't talking about breeding- we were talking about our buyers titling THEIR dogs. Whether breeding dogs should be titled is a totally separate discussion.
I cheated. They are the ready to bake ones, but they still taste awesome and I don't have a mess to clean up!
I cheated. They are the ready to bake ones, but they still taste awesome and I don't have a mess to clean up!
by GSDPACK on 29 November 2010 - 23:11
Well doesn't it go hand in hand? You would not breed to an untitled, unfinished dog, yet you dont care if none of the puppies never get a chance to be titled and finished.
BTW I burn those too.. so I cant even cheat!
BTW I burn those too.. so I cant even cheat!
by Jenni78 on 29 November 2010 - 23:11
Nowhere did I sayI don't want any of them to get titled. Ace's question pertained to the feeling that a buyer is obligated to title the dog because of the work the breeder put into the litter (I'm over-simplifying to be brief, for once, lol). I was trying to explain why I don't get mad if a dog doesn't get titled, and that a loving home is paramount and takes precedence over obtaining titles to make me feel good.
Most of my pups ARE in either sport or working homes. In fact, I only have one pup I sold who isn't doing SOMETHING "official," and she is in a military home with a VERY active family who actually needs a dog with that temperament to go on their typical adventures.
I just don't think that the one who isn't going to be titled in something is less of a dog or has less of a job when you compare them all, so my answer to the original question would have to be "yeah, sure, BUT not at the cost of the happiness of the dog."
I burn them too, which is why I buy the generic ones for $1.98/24 cookies. My bf makes fun of me all the time for burning them, but I get way less upset when I burn those than when I spend a lot of time and then burn them. You know? ;-)
Most of my pups ARE in either sport or working homes. In fact, I only have one pup I sold who isn't doing SOMETHING "official," and she is in a military home with a VERY active family who actually needs a dog with that temperament to go on their typical adventures.
I just don't think that the one who isn't going to be titled in something is less of a dog or has less of a job when you compare them all, so my answer to the original question would have to be "yeah, sure, BUT not at the cost of the happiness of the dog."
I burn them too, which is why I buy the generic ones for $1.98/24 cookies. My bf makes fun of me all the time for burning them, but I get way less upset when I burn those than when I spend a lot of time and then burn them. You know? ;-)
by GSDPACK on 29 November 2010 - 23:11
Oh crap.. I am done.
.. now I want something sweet!
fabulous, thanks jenni.
.. now I want something sweet!
fabulous, thanks jenni.
by PowerHaus on 29 November 2010 - 23:11
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