Cesar with OJ the trainer, A lesson in Aggression - Page 4

Understand now that I am not saying that you are playing with the dog and then dragging him by the toy near another male, I'm saying that the dog is blowing up first and you are trying to "redirect" him to a ball.

No the ball wouldn't work for that, only a hard correction would do the trick. Sorry, I just misunderstood what you meant. The ball and obedience is what I used to get him to ignore other dogs. If I waved the ball in his face when he is aggressing that would be rewarding him for is dick head behavior.

OJ does know his stuff. He is one of the few who have trained a dog to PSA3. RIP Porter.

Porter was not OJ's dog. It was Lamonts Huston's dog.

See????  Truth,,,thanks Chris,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless of course you'd rather shun the attention.

I'm going to have to go against the flow here-- I see nothing impressive whatsoever.  Not saying it's bad, and not saying this guy is a bad trainer, he might be great-- but this video is not impressive.

They have a GSD that has bravado-aggression and appears overstimulated.  Cesar has that silly Illusion collar on him.  One of my clients came here with a dog on that collar, the exact same problem, a Lab that went nuts over other dogs, and the dog was literally choking himself out on the collar, the owner said he choked until he threw up and almost passed out.  It is essentially a dominant dog collar kept very high on the neck (right below the jaw) by the straps below.  The other trainer changes to a choke chain, also not a proper collar for a beginner dog, the dog should be wearing a pinch collar as choke chains are not for precision work and are intended for advanced dogs.  However, the Cesar collar is very similar to a choke chain, it's just a nylon choke so it does not snap the same.

If this dog has a solid foundation of obedience, why isn't the barking corrected immediately when they get out of the car?  "Pfui, Heel" but they do not do that, he does pretty much nothing as far as giving the dog an alternate behavior and working him right away.  Getting him to play tug is fine, but what is the purpose of that, he is still not in close proximity to other dogs.

Also, the trainer holds a tug in front of a Dutch Shepherd and says look at that focus.  Yes, but anyone can do that, holding a tug in front of a Dutchie and having them looking at you, it means nothing except you have a tug in your hand.  To show that to pet owners is not fair-- pet owners do not all understand that a Mali or Dutchie is a different type of dog than theirs.  To take my Malinois and do a demo with pet owners who own, say, a Bulldog, Shar Pei, Mastiff, or low-drive GSD, it is not fair to give them the impression that they will be able to do that with their dog.  They might say WOAH look at that, but Their dog will probably never look like, or work like a Malinois.  Any dog with dog-aggression issues must first work their obedience calmly around other dogs, then must work around new and non-calm dogs, down-stays while dogs run past, etc, then must do close proximity work like dog-over-dog, and if it's real aggression they are  conditioned to wear a muzzle so we an proceed safely with those exercises.  I have several dog-aggressive dogs for training here right now, including a Pit, a Shepherd-mix, a GSD, and a Chihuahua, building up their prey drive is not a priority to me or their owners, getting them to listen is!  In fact the GSD plays tug great, but is still dog-aggressive.  I would be more impressed if they showed the Dutchie on a down-stay while one of the GSDs did a stand-stay,  sit-stay, and down-stay on the Dutchies back-- that shows control of dog-aggression.

Also, someone mentioned this trainer has PSA 3 dogs, I am asking this because I am not familiar with PSA, how difficult is the obedience in PSA, as compared to, say, SchH or AKC?  And how does training your Dutchies for PSA have anything to do with solving problematic or aggressive behavior in pets?

Phil: What do you think about this lady trainer's skills? What she says about indifference being key, that sounds like good advice. And she uses quite the toolbox of aids, too. 

Interesting video I wish I could have seen the whole training process though.  from the video:  "...and the way I really established control of him, was I had him in the kennel and he was all up in my face, and kinda like we were doing with the Pit Bull, where the dogs are behind the fence, and I use the collar, the nick, and the continuous, and the pager, sort of in a stand-off with the dog, to make the dog go down, and I did not give up, I didn't bend down, I didn't do anything like that... what you don't wanna do if you get a dog like this in is make friends with it, the crucial thing is indifference..."

Her first order of business was to get him to "down" with the collar?  An e-collar shouldn't be used until the dog is already trained.  So I disagree with her on that.  But I also understand how hard it can be to handle a 100 pound dog, but if you cannot handle them physically and have to use an e-collar through a fence, maybe the dog should be referred out to a different trainer.

Another thing is I do train handler-aggressive dogs, and I do want a bond with them.  We do hang out, I treat them as I would a normal dog.  Sometimes when a trainer is training a new dog they know is aggressive, they behave differently from the get-go, and it ends up almost provoking the dog to be aggressive.  Know what I mean?  Like the trainer is all ready to deal with the dog harshly or ovvereact because they know it's aggressive, and that doesn't work out well.  Some dogs look at the trainer as "who the hell are you to tell me what to do, you're not my owner, I don't know you from Adam!"  Before I even train them I have to get them wearing a muzzle, then getting the muzzle on without them biting me.  Why should you treat an aggressive dog any differently like to come out with a dominant attitude from the get-go, rather just do normal things and deal with the dogs reactions as they come. 

I like that she fed the dog out of the muzzle and conditioned him to wear a muzzle, and it's the Jafco muzzles I use.  Other than my 2 criticisms, looks like she got the job done!

Who did Lamont train with? He seemed to be at trials with OJ's group. Lamont handled the dog, OJ was the TD.

Did I say throwing a ball in front of a dog fight, was going to break it up? Quit playing stupid Phil but if I have my dogs attention (hence  the one step ahead of your dog comment) their shouldn't be a problem and I do believe that was what OJ was getting at with this dog. Give him another avenue, give him a job and he wont be so apt to go after another dog when his brain is busy with something else. The sooner you do this with any dog the less chance you will have with DA problems.

If I can grab my dogs attention with play or just a stern NO, they don't run after cats or other dogs. If I can stop a dog from chasing a cat, are you going to tell me he doesn't have enough prey drive then? Once the dog is already engaged, it's much harder to get control.

Didn't Lamont train with his Dad, Fred?

 oj .. IN AND OF HIMSELF IS VERY GOOD ...ALTHOUGH  NOT ANYTHING NEW HERE... AND THERE AGAIN .. AGGRESSION : ..  THERE ARE DEGREES OF AGGRESSION , TYPES OF AGGRESSION AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW  FORM WHERE IT ARISES .. E.G IS IT A LEARNED BEHAVIOR OR IS THE AGGRESSION GENETIC BASED ? [ POOR BREEDING OF GENETIC TRAITS] ?  FROM THE VIDEO ... THIS DOG COULD  HAVE BEEN HANDLED ON A BUCKLE COLLAR.  HE WAS A VERY EASY DOG TO HANDLE !! A THINK OJ  WAS EXCELLENT IN THAT THE FOREMOST ENDEAVOR WITH ANY ANIMAL / ESP. OUR DOGS IS TO DEVELOP YOUR RELATIONSHIP .. FOR YEARS I HAVE HERALDED THAT TRAINING IS A MANIFESTATION OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP .. ALSO , HE USED THE WORD ATTENTION .. BUT ON THIS FORUM I HAVE MENTIONED MANY A TIME .. ONE SHOULD AIM AT GETTING THE DOG TO ATTEND TO YOU [ IE THE DOG LOOKING TO YOU FOR DIRECTION / PERMISSION TO DO SOMETHING]. THAT IS ACCOMPLISHED IN DISCOVERING WHAT THE DOG NEEDS AND HIS MOTIVATIONS. SO A GOOD JOB IN ATTENDING TO THE DOG'S NEEDS,  WHICH IS A SENSE OF SAFETY AND  SECURITY BY DISTANCING HIMSELF / OR THE OTHERS FROM THE DOG'S CONTEXT. WE CONTINUALLY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO READ THE DOG.THIS IS CRITICAL !! KNOWING WHAT MAKES THE DOG TICK !! HE DID A GREAT JOB IN RECOGNIZING THIS DOG WANTS TO BE FRIENDLY BUT IS UNSURE. I AM CONFIDENT  THE REST OF THE DOGS TRAINING WOULD HAVE ENTAILED SUCCESSIVE APPROXIMATIONS/ THAT IS BRINGING IN THE OTHER DOGS CLOSER SLOWLY BUT  SURELY AND SO FORTH. .. CERTAIN TYPES OF AGGRESSION  ARE ADDRESSED BY CHANGING THE DOG'S OUTLOOK AND FEELINGS . BUT DON'T LET THIS VIDEO FOOL YOU .. IF YOU HAVE AGGRESSION DEEPLY SEATED  / GENETICALLY BASED .. IT IS VERY VERY VERY  HARD TO SEE THESE RESULTS  .. IF AT ALL .. SOMETIMES " YOU JUST CAN'T CHANGE THE SPOTS OF A LEOPARD'!