Is it common practice to do this.................... - Page 4

Babyeagles4u wrote:
<<seriously ... that dog(s) KNOW what SHE is doing. This is a friggin' dog forum isn't it ? Why do I always feel so stupid reading these threads ?>>>

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Mobjack wrote:
<<<<there is nothing I've seen with the protection work in any of the videos that impresses me in the slightest.>>>

I understand what you are saying....However, I do believe that in the beginning of this thread the comments were really harsh about the girl and her training ability.  The whole point is that she is no where near as bad as what she was made out to be.....I am not saying she is great, or that her method of training is correct...I am just suggesting that not everybody has to use the same methods to accomplish what they are striving for.

that off leash obedience is pathetic especially for an adult Malinois. you are impressed by a Malinois learning 4 basic positions??, it's a crappy focused heel the dog keeps looking away, its just crappy obedience with a stressed out dog and commands given in a loud threatening voice.  A beginner can learn from going to a good trainer, you say SchH training is expensive hah no its not expensive to go to a club, and clubs will tell you Malinois are the easiest to train of any breed of dog

 No I did not see that video before.  I first saw a video of a dog who was being taught a guard in the wrong way and whipped in the head as a correction, then I saw the one posted of the Pit Bull with a bad grip she was screaming at.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq06-PqCuuU&feature=related  According to the video comments the girl brees Pit Bulls

Ive seen worse videos Youtube is full of rediculous dog videos and bad training examples.  The sad thing is the ones posting the videos only post the best they have.

Feather
It is impossible to make an across the board judgement based on one video or even several.
I will ask you to keep a few things in mind if you read this comment from me.
I have no idea who the handler is and how she got into doing what she is doing. I comment on the video only.
No one here knows if she started this dog as a pup herself or purchased the dog yound with some training already. I suspect the latter since the dog at least attempts to do a backwards heel and escort.
Most, if not all of the people who commented here on this thread are Americans and the girl and dogs are in America.

The obedience video: For America it is very unusual to train the dog in multiple languages and hand signals. Very few dogs here are trained to that level of obedience and fewer compete at the level that requires hand signals. I comment on the video only from the standpoint of AKC obedience. Is the performance perfect, no it is not. I would expect more from a good malinois than what is shown in the video. Is it AKC obedience competition worthy, IMHO no it isn't. The dog will pass but that is not a not winning performance. Is it good, functional obedience for every day life, yes it is. And it is far more and much better than the vast majority of dogs are trained to in the US. If she trained this dog herself from a pup, it is a good job and shows a lot of effort. If this is a dog she purchased that already had some training, then the dog is nowhere near what I would expect to see for that level.

The protection videos. I watched two posted. The first, the second which showed her and the malinios taking first place in a competition and I posted one of a Cane Corso in the same competition. I do not understand hitting the dog to correct it but not using a proper correction collar on the dog in any of the videos. I have commented on the first video already so will only comment on the two from the "trial' now. The work is not good IMHO. The malinois is being confused by the handler, does not have the sharpness, fight, obedience and self control it should have. The Cane Corso is clearly handled by a novice that has no clue what they are doing. The dog does not really want to even be there. Spectators are roaming about everywhere and anywhere at all times. Helpers were injured. The judge is holding dogs he should be judging during the trial. And I'll point out he tried to do it in a very stupid way with a large powerful dog that he lost control of. Corrections, work on lead, very poor to non existant obedience and control seen at times. Clearly this is a bunch of novice people who are not holding a sanctioned match. The malinios and the girl handler had improved from the first video but I was still not impressed at all with either of them.
cont.

cont. from above

Training here in the US is very expensive and can be hard to obtain. Clubs are few and far between, often are not taking new members, not a good fit, not the type needed. Do I think the girl has a clue what she is doing in the protection, no I do not. IMHO she knows far less than she thinks she does. I think she is taking what she knows about training obedience and is applying it to the protection and she's listening to people who know no more than she does. If she is working with the best teacher she has then this is the best she will get from the dog. I do thnk she has a better idea of what she is doing than any of the other people I saw in the three videos. Including the judge and the people doing the helper work. She shows the desire and the willingness to put in the time it takes to train a good dog. I think she has an idea of what she wants to do with this dog and is having to find her own way how to get there. I would like to see her have an opportunity to learn from a good trainer. There is no one right way to train a dog. Given the opportunity to see some excellent dogs with very good training and she may see how lacking her own handling skills are and how poor the dog is in some areas. I think she and her dog could and would benefit from it. But I also think the girl has a genuine desire to learn and would do so.

Simply put, she and her dog won that competition. While she and the dog are lacking by a "real" performance standpoint or high caliber dogs and handlers they were the best her group had to offer on that given day. No, their best may not be the greatest or even mediocre by some standards but it was a lot better than the worst team who competed that day. Even a world class handler/dog team has room somewhere for improvement and a good handler and trainer recognizes that.

Maybe they are all learning off youtube. Who knows.

Nona,
Nice discussion I enjoyed it. I saw your point too  :-)

Mobjack, HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!

    The malinois is being confused by the handler, does not have the sharpness, fight, obedience and self control it should have. The Cane Corso is clearly handled by a novice that has no clue what they are doing. The dog does not really want to even be there."

When you use intimidating training and leash whipping this is what you get, a dog without the fight and without the PUSH, i think it has a lot of control but the wrong kind from corrections and fear.  Some control is from having what the dog wants like positive training, and some is from beating a dogs ass.  Clearly novice people, like you said, but I dont like everyones excuses of not affording training or having no trainers.  I used to drive hours to go to seminars to learn nd so have many people.  Who says you need a SchH club, these people have bad obedience and would only need a good trainer, not Schutzhund.  Find someone with good obedience in training like someone who does AKC competitive obedience, how difficult can that be??

Now someone posted another dog appearing at the same show, and i can see how that malinois won 1st place, that corso is horrible, it outed before handler said out, then it did not know what to do and was turning around and not coming back to her so she yells no.  This corso maybe would have been good in the right hands but is now probably ruined because someone wanted to make it too defensive in order to do some show held in a barn.  Notice the biggest mistake the are doing is having to work their dogs up, holding them back and loading them up and patting their sides before the bite.  A good protection or sport dog should not need this.  If the dog is so unclear on what to do that is what makes it a liability.  If the dog was actually proteciton dog as in the STREET protection, the juge would not be holding it, it would be biting the judge, actual protection dogs cant be restrained by strangers they will bite them, this dog is material-only and lets go several times in confusion

* "The malinois is being confused by the handler, does not have the sharpness, fight, obedience and self control it should have." *

-- You BOTH are FOS. Gage is a nice Malinois and Teresa encomiums him well. Do the the world a favor and stay away from the breed.

Well BabyEagle, I did say I liked the dog. I don't think the dog is bad, just the training. And that is my opinion. Since I come to this board to learn, please educate me.

What is the purpose of striking the dog over the head with the leash in the first video? To correct it for biting dirty? The dog drops and cowers and still goes back and tries for a dirty bite but thinks better of it. From the way the dog was watching her get set up for it right before she hit him, I'd bet the it wasn't the first time she's hit the dog that way and he knew it was coming. I don't ever want my dog to cower from a correction I've given it and I know better ways to correct a dog for biting dirty. Keep doing that with this dog and what good is he for real world protection? If he ever has to really protect the girl and the bad guy puts up a fight with the dog and hits it, what are the chances that dog will stay in the fight? What are the chances he will cut and run? How is hitting the dog that way proper and correct?

In the competition video, she hits the dog across the hips for not sitting on recall. I'll give her hitting the dog since there's no leash or correction collar on the dog, but how effective was that correction? The dog never sat. He squatted down behind after that, but his butt never hit the ground. How is this proper or correct? From a dog trained to do obedience in three languages and hand signals, I would expect a swift proper sit. Exactly what is the point behind picking the dog up and tossing it around and carrying it off like a sack of potatoes? Was this part of the competition? How in the world did that other lady handler pick up that big Cane Corso and carry him off then? 

Please explain to me how any of this protection training is being done safely. Just having a suit doesn't make it safe and that's obvious "One dog (shepard looking breed with bigger ears) hit him and took his whole upper half of his protective suit off. He had blood dripping pretty heavy from a wound on his hand. After patching him up the next dog (big OEB) missed on the initial lunge but as he chased him down the decoy slipped and the dog got him in the back of the head."

What is safe about the judge wrapping a leash around his hand when it's attached to a Cane Corso on the other end? What was safe about the dog getting away from the judge and going after the helper in the blind? What was safe about that dog having so little obedience that they couldn't call it back and had to go get it and step on the leash to catch it? And what is safe about having spectators wandering about and walking through the enclosed area of the barn when there is protection work going on?

I don't have a problem with you saying I'm FOS, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But how about explain why I'm FOS.

Here's the video of the hand bite, put the blame on the dog or the helper, your choice. My comments on this thread were  about the video of the dog Gage and Teresa Taylor and had nothing to do with any of the other dogs involved in the trial.          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxgkeGBvH9I&feature=search
 
Feather, the dog that won first place is the same dog you saw doing the off leash ob,Gage. I'm certainly not saying that this type of trial is something I would want to participate in or that it is necessarily the proper way to train for it, but I don't believe the work from Gage is  as bad as you want everyone to believe. Has it occured to you that maybe the dog is in the early stages of training and not the finished product,you saw a reason to post this video and then talk bad about it, why didn't you post a video of your dog showing that you have a better dog and better understanding of the proper way to train for this venue. Your opinion of the handler, the dog and the training might have carried a little more weight had you approached it in that manner, instead you come across as just wanting to make someone look bad, regardless of whether that was your intention or not.In another thread you said there was no need to test a protection dog with a hidden sleeve, does that mean that you would trust the dog to protect you without proofing the dog in any way. If so why would you be so confident in the dogs training.

Mobjack, I agree with what you think of the way the corrections were being carried out, but then again if the dog is not hard enough to withstand a slap across the nose with the leash or a slap on the butt, I believe in a real fight with real punishment [ real pain inflicted on the dog] he would leave the fight in a hurry.

Hi Michael :-)

No disagreement from me here. Some people might disagree with cracking the dog across the butt. I don't, with no other way to correct the dog, I think it was an appropriate move. I question the effectiveness of it (it wasn't) I question the handler's ability to really bring the dog up in drive, keep it there and still be able to work and control the dog. I question the dog being corrected at all during a "competition".

if the dog is not hard enough to withstand a slap across the nose with the leash or a slap on the butt, I believe in a real fight with real punishment [ real pain inflicted on the dog] he would leave the fight in a hurry.

Not going to disagree with this either. I don't think this is the kind of dog that's going to be able to take it in a real fight. If she keeps cracking him that way MHO is she will ensure it. My only point is there are better ways.

Without even watching the video of the hand bite I would have said it's the helper's fault. After watching it, absolutely it's the helper's fault and I hope he at least learned something from it. Even the way the girl leashed the dog back up was unsafe and could have been very stupid with the wrong dog. After watching just the first video I said someone would get hurt because they didn't know what they were doing and as far as I'm concerned, this is proof positive. 

A "hardest hitting" competition and an "open protection" competition with little or no control over some of these dogs. I don't have a problem with the competitions themselves, but to me this is a bunch of people feeding their egos playing at "barney badass dog" and think it's funny. It won't be funny if one of them plays "sic the dog" on somebody as a joke and the dog actually does it. You can't play games with bitework or learn how to do it off youtube.

Mobjack, I agree