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by yoshy on 06 February 2010 - 14:02
Deb,
We are just rattling around about real world trailing, not schh but if you want to bring it up go ahead.
I am also not in a position of needing help. I just like to get these discussions off the ground as sometimes you can get 1 or 2 new ideas out of it and get to see people opinions as well. As some may be more profficient than our own.
I personally am not a fan of schh tracking. Anyone can get a dog to track straight lines with a couple articles with enough hot dogs. I have many people come out to work with/for me that "there dog can track/ trail"(trained for schh), then when they come out they are less than mediocre trailers, difficult to retrain, and the handlers don't know how to read their dog. Not to say all cant by anymeans as I have one the is extremely profficient but most don't make the transition from style points to find victim 5 miles away on a 2 day old trail. Im not saying this to be an ass, just letting you knwo there is a big difference between real world scent work and schh tracking.
We are just rattling around about real world trailing, not schh but if you want to bring it up go ahead.
I am also not in a position of needing help. I just like to get these discussions off the ground as sometimes you can get 1 or 2 new ideas out of it and get to see people opinions as well. As some may be more profficient than our own.
I personally am not a fan of schh tracking. Anyone can get a dog to track straight lines with a couple articles with enough hot dogs. I have many people come out to work with/for me that "there dog can track/ trail"(trained for schh), then when they come out they are less than mediocre trailers, difficult to retrain, and the handlers don't know how to read their dog. Not to say all cant by anymeans as I have one the is extremely profficient but most don't make the transition from style points to find victim 5 miles away on a 2 day old trail. Im not saying this to be an ass, just letting you knwo there is a big difference between real world scent work and schh tracking.
by LAVK-9 on 06 February 2010 - 23:02
I know that you are "not in a position of needing help" but this is how we did it where I worked training police dogs. We would do foot step to foot step starting on pavement,baiting each toe with cheese,brunschwager,or hot dog whatever the dog liked the most. In the beginning it would be every foot step(but not as close together as some do in SchH) for so many paces and we would be next to the dog giving the "seek" or "track" command. Always a step ahead of them so they didn't go too fast and blow past the track. Later we would taper off the bait having it maybe every 3-5 steps.At the end of the tracks we would have their "drug" toy (tug toy used for reward in sent discrimination tracking etc) buried. Then when they dug that up we would play with them and praise them. Later we would end up tapering off the bait on the track and also add different surfaces like gravel,grass and pavement and back to grass. We would add turns and curves and go along the road or a busy street.Aging the tracks as well as we would always watch each others track to learn from each other if something were to come up. It was also good to get the dogs use to people being around as the tracking was going on so when they were out on the street with the officer and people were around it didn't bother the dog.A few of the people I worked with that trained the K-9s also did SchH and they would get 100 in tracking in all levels that they did.One guy that did the most training with the officers did a SchH track with his dog off leash and got 100pt score. It was kinda funny cause the SchH club said he couldn't train his dog to track the way we did with the police and have the dog be able to do well.Guess that wasn't the case. The dogs would track for long distances with their nose to the ground.Even seen them go right over road kill and didn't miss a beat and found the decoy up in the tree.
Not that you "need help" but FWIW.
~L~
Not that you "need help" but FWIW.
~L~
by LAVK-9 on 06 February 2010 - 23:02
Oh as for a dog that has done SchH way of tracking....I know a few that could have no problem switching over to police way of tracking....let alone be a police dog as they are serious dogs.Guess it is all in the training ability of the handler.
~L~
~L~
by yoshy on 07 February 2010 - 01:02
Lauren,
Some dogs can make the transition but there are many whom are trained a particular way and dont make the transition into the real world.Anyone can lay enough hotdogs on the ground to get a dog to run straight lines and keep there nose to the ground. However in real world SAR when you get a call 2-5 days after something went missing through urban or wilderness and you have to find it. Its a lot different than someone nose to ground on an hour old track in straight lines. Many are not trained for any purpose beyond style points and people have the false conception they can track for real.
There are some dogs that are profficient at both yes. But its a small percentage.
And i have used food to train footstep tracking as well- Johnson Method- and has worked well for sport. But in trailing dogs whom have much older and more difficult tracks i dont like food. I want to build drive for finding the end of the trail/victim. I want a dog in drive- hunting- and eager but mythotical in finding the victim or lost thing.
What i did with my yosh isnt to far off from what you were describing there but i didnt use any food, i never step in front of the dog, and i dont bury the toy. Yosh will be certifying in advanced urban scent descrimination in april. But i do like the logic behind the principle of the training sequence. As its similar to what im doing with my dogs.
So they allowed this guy in open competition to track his dog with no lead?
by LAVK-9 on 07 February 2010 - 02:02
Well the dog that did the foot step method were police dogs(pretty much all of northern IL,WI,MN,IN and some other area) They would get calls at whatever time that some bad guy robbed a bank and took off in whatever direction or they didn't know what direction and the dogs were able to get the sent and bring the cops to where they were or as I recall this one cop I was friends with...the dog led him to a parking lot of the 7-11 after a very long track and the dog was circling and whining.The store clerk came out and asked if he was looking for some guy and gave a description.It was the guys he was looking for.The clerk said they took off in a car. They don't always keep their nose to the ground but that is how they teach it.They can air sent but the foundation was foot step to foot step to teach them to go methodically and the bait is their "paycheck" and they associate the sent with it along with the toy at the end.Then they get the clue that the sent they are on might bring them to their toy.That builds up the prey drive/hunt.The S&R that would come to us for training would do a mix of both.( None of this was SchH.)
The trainer of the K-9 department(now he is a cop) he did SchH for the hell of it. Yes you are aloud to track off leash but no one ever does that I know of cause that is usually the part that people don't train enough for.
~L~
The trainer of the K-9 department(now he is a cop) he did SchH for the hell of it. Yes you are aloud to track off leash but no one ever does that I know of cause that is usually the part that people don't train enough for.
~L~
by DebiSue on 07 February 2010 - 04:02
Yoshy,
I don't think you're an ass. I was just putting in my two cents worth. I'm just learning along with my girl as I just began SchH this last year. I noticed my girl getting frustrated over the apparently overwhelming scent of hotdogs so I switched to a less "appetizing" treat and use very few. She is more into the reward at the end than the food along the way. I will soon cut all food out at the rate she is learning.
As for real life stuff well let me share a story. We had another GSD bitch, Airin (RIP) and we never trained her in tracking. She was our pet. We decided just for shits & giggles to see what she could do. So we went to a local high school, parked on a paved (concrete) parking lot one summer day. We live in Kansas which literally means the wind is always blowing. I distract our girl while my husband takes off across the pavement, zigzagging from light pole to parked car and finally about the length of a football field he ducks behind a corner and down some concrete steps. The wind is blowing from the south, he headed north. I wait for about 5 minutes and let her out, off leash and tell her "Go find Paul". She scouts around for just a moment and takes off dead on the track, no circling, no hesitation. She ran him down in a mere minute. On concrete, in the heat of the day (80+) with a strong south wind, tracking north.
After that we often took turns "hiding" and even involved neighbor kids and used various locations with varying surfaces. She never failed to locate her target person. We thought, wow this is great! So we bought a book on tracking and found out that everything we had been doing was wrong, hard surfaces, hot days, sharp turns, varying surfaces. You name it, we screwed it up. Since we had no plans on doing SAR or competing in tracking, we decided just to keep doing it for fun and enjoyed her for several years. We got her at 18mo so it is possible someone trained her to track but we were told she was trained only in basic OB so I doubt it. Some dogs just do. As soon as our current girl tracks to my satisfaction as far as SchH I plan on introducing her to our game of hide and seek in the hopes she is half the tracker Airin was.
Sometimes our dogs succeed in spite of us.
Deb
I don't think you're an ass. I was just putting in my two cents worth. I'm just learning along with my girl as I just began SchH this last year. I noticed my girl getting frustrated over the apparently overwhelming scent of hotdogs so I switched to a less "appetizing" treat and use very few. She is more into the reward at the end than the food along the way. I will soon cut all food out at the rate she is learning.
As for real life stuff well let me share a story. We had another GSD bitch, Airin (RIP) and we never trained her in tracking. She was our pet. We decided just for shits & giggles to see what she could do. So we went to a local high school, parked on a paved (concrete) parking lot one summer day. We live in Kansas which literally means the wind is always blowing. I distract our girl while my husband takes off across the pavement, zigzagging from light pole to parked car and finally about the length of a football field he ducks behind a corner and down some concrete steps. The wind is blowing from the south, he headed north. I wait for about 5 minutes and let her out, off leash and tell her "Go find Paul". She scouts around for just a moment and takes off dead on the track, no circling, no hesitation. She ran him down in a mere minute. On concrete, in the heat of the day (80+) with a strong south wind, tracking north.
After that we often took turns "hiding" and even involved neighbor kids and used various locations with varying surfaces. She never failed to locate her target person. We thought, wow this is great! So we bought a book on tracking and found out that everything we had been doing was wrong, hard surfaces, hot days, sharp turns, varying surfaces. You name it, we screwed it up. Since we had no plans on doing SAR or competing in tracking, we decided just to keep doing it for fun and enjoyed her for several years. We got her at 18mo so it is possible someone trained her to track but we were told she was trained only in basic OB so I doubt it. Some dogs just do. As soon as our current girl tracks to my satisfaction as far as SchH I plan on introducing her to our game of hide and seek in the hopes she is half the tracker Airin was.
Sometimes our dogs succeed in spite of us.
Deb
by LAVK-9 on 07 February 2010 - 04:02
Thats a great story Deb!! I have a client that was in my tracking class and she does the same thing....but her husband isn't always a willing volunteer.lol So she will take a hat of hers and hide it some where and let Hailey a Mal something mix go find it.She loves it and is good at it so she took my class and after teaching the foundation and Haileygetting it very quickly...we moved in to me hiding and she would have her find me or my client would hide and I would handle Hailey and she would find her mom. Even on a cold windy day she did very well. Sounds like you are doing well.Keep up the good work.(FWIW for tracking bait,not sure if you are still using it, I would use natural balance.It is in a roll like sausage.At most pet stores)
~L~
~L~
by Slamdunc on 08 February 2010 - 00:02
Deb,
Just a couple of quick things if you are currently training your dog for SchH tracking. First, don't rush to eliminate the food from the track. For SchH tracking you never really want to cut the food out of the track totally in training. Although, SchH tracking is not "real" world tracking it is still a good test of the dogs ability to work and and focus. In some ways SchH tracking is more demanding than other styles of tracking because of the precision required. I really enjoy SchH tracking and it is not difficult to convert a dog taught to footstep track to air scent or do SAR work. I think the dogs with a good foundation in SchH style tracking make better tracking dogs when converted to air scenting.
Getting back to my point, you will create problems with your dog if you rush to eliminate the food. For SchH you need a slow methodical dog that works intensely to get good scores. What will happen if you stop using food and just use a toy at the end it will cause your dog to race to the end of the track to get it's reward. You may start having problems with your dog missing turns and not being as accurate on the track. When the dog knows the reward is always at the end it will just want to get to the end. The advantage of using food is that you can vary the reward. You can add challenges into the track during training and plan where to place food to either assist the dog or reward the dog. You can use food to slow the dog down and make it more intense. You need to practice with varying the size of the hot dog pieces and the amount you use on the track. You may want to try bigger pieces spaced further apart or nickel size pieces . Once my dogs progress, I always vary the amount and spacing. I like to vary the placement so the dog never knows when to expect the food and keeps working to find it. I may have heavily baited legs and legs with no food or very little. It depends on the age and experience of the dog and what the goal of the track is. One thing to keep in mind is that you do not teach the dog to track, the track teaches the dog to track. So lay your tracks in a way that teach the dog how to work them out. I like to use a lot of serpentines in the beginning and I do not like straight legs till the dog is tracking well. Even dogs that I have put a SchH 3 on still get food on their training tracks.
Also, IMO FWIW, I wouldn't put food under the articles when teaching them to the dog. You mentioned the dog "nudges" the article to get the food. You will lose points in a SchH trial if the dog manipulates the article. I really enjoy SchH tracking as a sport and the "real" world tracking I do as my job.
JMO,
Jim
Just a couple of quick things if you are currently training your dog for SchH tracking. First, don't rush to eliminate the food from the track. For SchH tracking you never really want to cut the food out of the track totally in training. Although, SchH tracking is not "real" world tracking it is still a good test of the dogs ability to work and and focus. In some ways SchH tracking is more demanding than other styles of tracking because of the precision required. I really enjoy SchH tracking and it is not difficult to convert a dog taught to footstep track to air scent or do SAR work. I think the dogs with a good foundation in SchH style tracking make better tracking dogs when converted to air scenting.
Getting back to my point, you will create problems with your dog if you rush to eliminate the food. For SchH you need a slow methodical dog that works intensely to get good scores. What will happen if you stop using food and just use a toy at the end it will cause your dog to race to the end of the track to get it's reward. You may start having problems with your dog missing turns and not being as accurate on the track. When the dog knows the reward is always at the end it will just want to get to the end. The advantage of using food is that you can vary the reward. You can add challenges into the track during training and plan where to place food to either assist the dog or reward the dog. You can use food to slow the dog down and make it more intense. You need to practice with varying the size of the hot dog pieces and the amount you use on the track. You may want to try bigger pieces spaced further apart or nickel size pieces . Once my dogs progress, I always vary the amount and spacing. I like to vary the placement so the dog never knows when to expect the food and keeps working to find it. I may have heavily baited legs and legs with no food or very little. It depends on the age and experience of the dog and what the goal of the track is. One thing to keep in mind is that you do not teach the dog to track, the track teaches the dog to track. So lay your tracks in a way that teach the dog how to work them out. I like to use a lot of serpentines in the beginning and I do not like straight legs till the dog is tracking well. Even dogs that I have put a SchH 3 on still get food on their training tracks.
Also, IMO FWIW, I wouldn't put food under the articles when teaching them to the dog. You mentioned the dog "nudges" the article to get the food. You will lose points in a SchH trial if the dog manipulates the article. I really enjoy SchH tracking as a sport and the "real" world tracking I do as my job.
JMO,
Jim
by yoshy on 08 February 2010 - 05:02
Jim,
if you feel that schh trained tracking dog make better tracking dogs when converted to real world why would we not train them in the same facet for all there foundation work? just playing devils advocate here.
Also, I do like to engage the dog with runaways- jump right into foot step tracking- and follow with air scenting. So I can agree with ground 1st air second.
I would like to say to all scent work is the thing our dogs knows the most about and we know the least. So training will definitely be theory for a long time to come on this topic. It makes for great discussion and learning from all.
some more devils advocate here,
You feel schh accurate gages a dogs tracking ability? nerves, environmental change, duration, endurance, depth of nose abilities, mental strain, etc????????
--------------------------------------------------------
i should re-word what I wrote above. Many of the handlers whom come out do not possess the necessary skills to complete the tasks assigned and dogs are most definitely not ready for real world. However with the dogs - its a dog by dog basis just as any other type of work- as real world is much more difficult in tasking than on a schh field. Yes the dog has to look perfect. However there is a huge gap between the two. I have only scene a handful of dogs whom could compete at high levels on the sport field and produce high level in real world as well(because of training differences and difference in requirements). This has been my experience. I have always chosen one side or the other for my dogs. With the exception of one. Personally i feel that anyone can go out and lay food and get a dog to track a hour aged track over organic surface for a few hundred yards. Yes I realize there is much more to it on the field but as you know when you get a call for emergency support a day later and you have a several mile trail w/ back tracks, acute angle, 4 surfaces, environmental change, distraction,obstacles, etc....., you better trust your dog, be able to read your dog, and have a darn good/well trained dog. It has been my experience with local hobbyists and low-mid level competitors that have come out really do not know how to truly read there dog on live trails. That has been one of the biggest obstacles to over come with new guys as its some thing you dont learn over night and different dogs have different tells. You cant just read a book on it and it takes time.
For schh there is a lady up the road here that has competed on the national level many times that she will not pull food from her tracks til competition day. She swears by it. And her dogs do really well obviously. So take it for what its worth.
if you feel that schh trained tracking dog make better tracking dogs when converted to real world why would we not train them in the same facet for all there foundation work? just playing devils advocate here.
Also, I do like to engage the dog with runaways- jump right into foot step tracking- and follow with air scenting. So I can agree with ground 1st air second.
I would like to say to all scent work is the thing our dogs knows the most about and we know the least. So training will definitely be theory for a long time to come on this topic. It makes for great discussion and learning from all.
some more devils advocate here,
You feel schh accurate gages a dogs tracking ability? nerves, environmental change, duration, endurance, depth of nose abilities, mental strain, etc????????
--------------------------------------------------------
i should re-word what I wrote above. Many of the handlers whom come out do not possess the necessary skills to complete the tasks assigned and dogs are most definitely not ready for real world. However with the dogs - its a dog by dog basis just as any other type of work- as real world is much more difficult in tasking than on a schh field. Yes the dog has to look perfect. However there is a huge gap between the two. I have only scene a handful of dogs whom could compete at high levels on the sport field and produce high level in real world as well(because of training differences and difference in requirements). This has been my experience. I have always chosen one side or the other for my dogs. With the exception of one. Personally i feel that anyone can go out and lay food and get a dog to track a hour aged track over organic surface for a few hundred yards. Yes I realize there is much more to it on the field but as you know when you get a call for emergency support a day later and you have a several mile trail w/ back tracks, acute angle, 4 surfaces, environmental change, distraction,obstacles, etc....., you better trust your dog, be able to read your dog, and have a darn good/well trained dog. It has been my experience with local hobbyists and low-mid level competitors that have come out really do not know how to truly read there dog on live trails. That has been one of the biggest obstacles to over come with new guys as its some thing you dont learn over night and different dogs have different tells. You cant just read a book on it and it takes time.
For schh there is a lady up the road here that has competed on the national level many times that she will not pull food from her tracks til competition day. She swears by it. And her dogs do really well obviously. So take it for what its worth.
by yoshy on 08 February 2010 - 05:02
I just read up. Nice story.
Its funny my best natural tracker was a lab shep mix so i can definitely relate. But keep in mind with focus training even those guys can be groomed for more and there potential brought to light.
Wasnt trying to be an ass, its a good part to bring up for further dicussion to the ties of sport to real world and differences in training methods and opinions for learning.
Jim gave some sound advice above in my opinion for your circumstances. but again its opinion.
Its funny my best natural tracker was a lab shep mix so i can definitely relate. But keep in mind with focus training even those guys can be groomed for more and there potential brought to light.
Wasnt trying to be an ass, its a good part to bring up for further dicussion to the ties of sport to real world and differences in training methods and opinions for learning.
Jim gave some sound advice above in my opinion for your circumstances. but again its opinion.
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