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by Slamdunc on 29 January 2010 - 18:01
Held,
That may be true and I don't disagree. However, some handler sensitive dogs won't leave the handler to go and search at a good distance. For example in large buildings or schools where the hallway can be 200 yards long. Some handler sensitive dogs do not feel comfortable searching that far in advance of the handler and will constantly return to the handler. That sensitivity can flow over into other areas and affect performance.
When a dog is concerned about where the handler is or what the handler is doing it can be distracted and lose focus on the task at hand. You can see this in tracking, biitework, obedience etc. This can be caused through genetics and / or training. I'm not saying that people can't work these dogs and get good results, especially in sport work. It's just not the picture that I like to see. I prefer a happy, driven, confident, focused working dog, not one that is overly sensitive to the handler. We all have our preferences and I like a dog that is attentive to me and driven to work, pushing me to work, yet not overly sensitive to my voice or corrections. To each their own.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
That may be true and I don't disagree. However, some handler sensitive dogs won't leave the handler to go and search at a good distance. For example in large buildings or schools where the hallway can be 200 yards long. Some handler sensitive dogs do not feel comfortable searching that far in advance of the handler and will constantly return to the handler. That sensitivity can flow over into other areas and affect performance.
When a dog is concerned about where the handler is or what the handler is doing it can be distracted and lose focus on the task at hand. You can see this in tracking, biitework, obedience etc. This can be caused through genetics and / or training. I'm not saying that people can't work these dogs and get good results, especially in sport work. It's just not the picture that I like to see. I prefer a happy, driven, confident, focused working dog, not one that is overly sensitive to the handler. We all have our preferences and I like a dog that is attentive to me and driven to work, pushing me to work, yet not overly sensitive to my voice or corrections. To each their own.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
by Held on 29 January 2010 - 18:01
Nothing wrong with liking hard dogs.Whatever turns you on.Have a ice one.
by Bob McKown on 29 January 2010 - 19:01
My Axel could be hammered with a 2X4 and never wilt during corrections, (but i suspect he was brain damaged) he would stay in drive the matter of fact the harder the correction the higher his drive would go and very body hard but responsive. Had I been a better handler he would of been a better dog.
My Fiest (2 year old female) that I,m currently working is very correction aware but her drive makes her recovery instantaneous she takes the correction but immediately recovers. Her bite work is very good and she handles pressure very well both are good dogs.
My Fiest (2 year old female) that I,m currently working is very correction aware but her drive makes her recovery instantaneous she takes the correction but immediately recovers. Her bite work is very good and she handles pressure very well both are good dogs.
by Slamdunc on 29 January 2010 - 19:01
Bob,
A good example of two dogs with different temperaments, that require different training techniques. I like the temperament of both dogs. The nice thing about your female is the ability to bounce back into drive after a correction. I would define a dog in hardness level as one that is resilient and has the ability to come back into drive after a correction or unpleasant experience. The better the ability to handle an unpleasant expereince (not only corrections) and come still be unaffected or go back into drive shows tha hardness level of the dog. Dogs with a low threshold are low on the scale, dogs with a higher threshold to handle stress with out diminished drive are higher on the scale. As you know you just need to adjust your training techniques and methods to fit the level of the dog.
Sometimes with a male like yours a person runs the risk of progressing to fast in the training and actually being too hard or expecting too much because the dog can handle it. I have had that problem before with precocious young highly driven dogs that decoys want to ramp up the pressure to early or progressing to a hard sleeve to fast forgetting how young the dog is. From the video I've seen of him he looks supeer.
Jim
A good example of two dogs with different temperaments, that require different training techniques. I like the temperament of both dogs. The nice thing about your female is the ability to bounce back into drive after a correction. I would define a dog in hardness level as one that is resilient and has the ability to come back into drive after a correction or unpleasant experience. The better the ability to handle an unpleasant expereince (not only corrections) and come still be unaffected or go back into drive shows tha hardness level of the dog. Dogs with a low threshold are low on the scale, dogs with a higher threshold to handle stress with out diminished drive are higher on the scale. As you know you just need to adjust your training techniques and methods to fit the level of the dog.
Sometimes with a male like yours a person runs the risk of progressing to fast in the training and actually being too hard or expecting too much because the dog can handle it. I have had that problem before with precocious young highly driven dogs that decoys want to ramp up the pressure to early or progressing to a hard sleeve to fast forgetting how young the dog is. From the video I've seen of him he looks supeer.
Jim
by 4pack on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
Why are we talking about Bowel Movements anyway? BM = bowel movement...well either way, one and the same for me. I haven't had a problem finding some nice GSD's, no need to jump ship.
by Slamdunc on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
4pack,
I'm with you, I haven't had any trouble finding a good GSD in years. Plenty of very capable good GSD's out there. I'm confident I can find plenty more in the future, you just need to know where to look.
Jim
by LAVK-9 on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
4Pack i am glad someone said something about the BM.lol At first that caught me off guard when reading that.Kinda funny. There are very good GSD breeders....you just have to know where to look and know what their breeding for....the $$ or the preservation of the breed.
by Phil Behun on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
Thank you Held for explaining the difference, I was afraid that the vocal majority were missing the point. A dog without any sensitivity to it's handler is pretty much untrainable. Think about it. I always love when people refer to their dogs as "Alpha". You couldn't own or train an "Alpha" personality. Alpha is supreme, Alpha doesn't lose, Alpha doesn't waiver. When Alpha loses, he/she is no longer Alpha and has relinquished those duties to the victor.
The Malinois breed in general is very sensitive to their handler or the person they have bonded with. Does this mean they are soft and can't do the work? No, look at the video clip of the Korung. Is there anyone here that believes that the Korung used to evaluate the German Shepherd Dog for breeding is more difficult than the Korung used for the Malinois? (Trick question,,,,,I'm waiting to see who actually says yes.) And, for those of you that think the sport of SchH is just a game and doesn't simulate real life, I would love to see the average PP dog go through the same set of tests. I have done both sides, in the early days PP and police K9, these days (since the early 90's) SchH and FR. A dog without balance will have a very difficult time competing at a high level in sport. A dog without balance will not make a good PP dog either. Too much prey, not so good. Too much defense, not so good. Too much aggression, not so good.
To compete at a high level with a handler sensitive dog takes skill and ingenuity. To compete at a high level with a blockhead takes a big shovel and a sledgehammer. It's like comparing a bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild 2000 to a bottle of Welch's grape juice, both very refreshing, one takes a refined palate.
The Malinois breed in general is very sensitive to their handler or the person they have bonded with. Does this mean they are soft and can't do the work? No, look at the video clip of the Korung. Is there anyone here that believes that the Korung used to evaluate the German Shepherd Dog for breeding is more difficult than the Korung used for the Malinois? (Trick question,,,,,I'm waiting to see who actually says yes.) And, for those of you that think the sport of SchH is just a game and doesn't simulate real life, I would love to see the average PP dog go through the same set of tests. I have done both sides, in the early days PP and police K9, these days (since the early 90's) SchH and FR. A dog without balance will have a very difficult time competing at a high level in sport. A dog without balance will not make a good PP dog either. Too much prey, not so good. Too much defense, not so good. Too much aggression, not so good.
To compete at a high level with a handler sensitive dog takes skill and ingenuity. To compete at a high level with a blockhead takes a big shovel and a sledgehammer. It's like comparing a bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild 2000 to a bottle of Welch's grape juice, both very refreshing, one takes a refined palate.
by Prager on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
Recently I am hearing more and more requests for Mal-sheps. I see that as a slow comeback of GSD, based on realization of what good GSD is all about. I personally believe that good GSD is superior to Malinois same as it is superior to other breeds which are now in history as a police dogs. Like Rottweilers, Dobermans, Ardeiles, Boxers,......
The problem of GSD is that today GSD's traits are promoted by AKC, SV, FCI and other sport based outfits.
For example today required response to the gunfire is that of a dimwitted creature. And where is evaluated territoriality, and ability to protect itself or trully protect at all?
I and my friends are now talking about developing a program of evaluating many such neglected traits available to general public in order to promote working GSD .
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
The problem of GSD is that today GSD's traits are promoted by AKC, SV, FCI and other sport based outfits.
For example today required response to the gunfire is that of a dimwitted creature. And where is evaluated territoriality, and ability to protect itself or trully protect at all?
I and my friends are now talking about developing a program of evaluating many such neglected traits available to general public in order to promote working GSD .
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Bob McKown on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
Alpha-phalfa, any dog can be trainned if you have the abality and persistance there are no untrainable dogs. Your time is the only limmiting factor and what your training for.
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