color genetics - Page 4

Resorted to insulting my dog now?  This is getting personal!  Shame on you for that as well.  I think he looks pretty nice myself, but damn he can sure work!

Yes, if I were titling my dogs in schutzhund, I could breed survey them, but probably wouldn't anyway.  Since my wife and I have separated, she remained in schutzhund while I took up herding and tending.  I love it, wouldn't trade it, although I do miss the protectionwork.  I see sport tracking as pointless, and would favor the "article search" in place of it.  Obedience seems mostly showmanship to me, but I enjoy it because he does.  For three years, and with a very keen eye, I learned all I felt I needed to know.

I've trained with five dogs over the course of this year in herding, a lot of good foundation work at this time, but only one title, and three "first legs" towards official titles.  Y'know I still don't give a damn about titles either, I do it for the EXPERIENCE, and my dogs are actually doing extremely well.  I'm perhaps a little modest by not keeping you informed.  Perhaps if you HOT your next herding dog, you can leave your schutzhund attitude with schutzhund.

Have you titled your dog in HGH herding Daryl?  One dog from my program is HGH titled - and working on  his Schh titles as well.  How about you/your dogs?  ANY titles HOT or not?    Oh that's right - you don't care about titles, they don't mean anything, they don't matter - typical excuses "breeders" make for not titling their dogs before breeding them.  You know, there is a reason that conformation rating of at least "G" is required for registering litters via SV - structure is important - obviously you don't think so.  Keep reading those books!
molly

But YOU did not title your dog, you sent it off for someone else to train.  Get my point?  You're a 'purist' for SV standards, I totally understand.  But if you expect every one should do-as-molly-does before deserving your respect, that's a bit egocentric, don't you think?  I can send my dog off to your neck of the woods to get my HGH titles under someone elses training too, what's your excuse?  I have available to me AHBA and AKC herding, and I've trained and trialed in both.

lt still has very little to do with coat colors, and you should really cease your rantings about me.  I work my dogs, and work toward titles, and because you're wrong about that too, you should just shut up or at least stay on topic!

I don't know about the colors; but that is one cute picture of the bitch with her puppy by her face.  Love that. Nan

HAVE you titled your dog in HGH, or sent him off to be titled?  NO?  So what's the excuse?  Why not?  He can do it, right?  Who says?  You?  Prove it.  I did.  I have titled dogs from my own breeding over and over again - in Schutzhund, AKC obedience, K9 Police and detection (cadaver, narcotics), and worked them in SAR.  HGH is not something I do, or have access to - my 14 sheep aren't quite enough for that kind of training (HGH requires 250 sheep minimum) not to mention I don't know how to train for HGH.  My dog proved he could do it - he did it with high scores and high praise from the SV judge. 
Or are you talking about herding 4 sheep around a small pen for AKC herding?   That is fun - I do it myself, for fun - not to prove anything or use the "titles" for breeding rights.

Now back to color.

I bred my sable/sable female to Bandit, who is a sable with known black recessive.  The puppies who inherited his sable gene (and therefore are sable/sable) do not have distinct black markings on their toes or heels.  The puppies who inherited his black recessive do.  Interesting, yes?

this puppy DOES have black toes = black recessive


This puppy DOES NOT have distinct toe marks/tarheels = no black recessive

Now you're going to put down other people's sports that you don't understand?  There are many ways that 50 to 250 sheep are much easier to manage than 3 or 5 would be.  It's a whole different dynamic.  But, if you think "bigger is better" then I can say that once or twice a week, I'll work with 50 or more sheep in a flock, throwing in a half dozen goats for good measure, just to keep it interesting.  Because the sheep won't test a dog as readily as the goats, and the sheep follow them.  This is, of course done in wide open grasslands about a quartermile by a mile in size, and those fences could be easily breached.  And it is about the" fun" of it, and not the titles!

"I bred my sable/sable female to Bandit, who is a sable with known black recessive. The puppies who inherited his sable gene (and therefore are sable/sable) do not have distinct black markings on their toes or heels. The puppies who inherited his black recessive do. Interesting, yes?"
 

No wonder you need a breed survey. I thought you just bred 'em LIKE rabbits, not bred 'em WITH rabbits!

Interesting that you think just "saying so", makes it so.  Did you dna test to prove their recessive, or have these pups grown and produced themselves already to give you such notion?

Your reasoning is much better in the second example, but just because it's true in two pairs of producers, doesn't make it representative of the entire breed.

It is true in every sable mating I've ever done, in all the years I've bred dogs "like rabbits" LOL and in every breeding of sable dogs I've ever known - without ever one exception.  How's that for statistics?  I ask you, OH book-learned one - please show me a picture or in person example of one sable dog with distinct black toe marks/tarheels and black on feet/lower legs, who does NOT carry black or bicolor recessive.  OR one sable dog with NO distinct black toe marks/tarheels who is a known carrier of black or bicolor.  Can't you come up with ONE????  I came up with several examples - I can show more - here's more.

Bicolor offspring of the sable dog pictured in one of the posts above - sable dog with toe marks, known bicolor recessive, no black recessive.  Of course since pup is BICOLOR, it has toe marks/tar heels - dam was black/tan with black recessive, no bicolor recessive.  So this pup inherited bicolor from sire, and probably black from dam - or black/tan from dam, hard to tell with bicolor but judging on the black coverage, probably black.



Sable dam (grey sable with washed-out markings) with known bicolor recessive, no black recessive.  Bred to black male.  Pups are sables with black recessive (black toe marks/tarheels) and bicolors with black recessive.



Another litter example.  Sire is dark bl/tan with known black recessive.  Dam is sable with known black recessive.  There were black, black/tan/black, sable/black/tan and sable/black pups in the litter.  Black/tan pups in the litter do not have toemarks - they are not bicolor because there is no bicolor recessive in either parent.  All bl/tan pups carry black recessive from the sable dam.  Sable pups either carry bl/tan or black from the sire.  The sable pups that carry black do have toe marks -



and the sable pups in the same litter who carry black/tan and not black do not have toe marks -



molly

"OH book-learned one - please show me a picture or in person example of one sable dog with distinct black toe marks/tarheels and black on feet/lower legs, who does NOT carry black or bicolor recessive."

Galant z Pohranicni Straze.  Is that clear enough for you?  Do you want me to supersize it?  Maybe you should demand dna testing, because you couldn't possibly be wrong!  Give it a rest, please!  This has become a colorful thread about character, at least.

Molly you said.....
"If I'm wrong, then please show me a dog that is PROVEN AND KNOWN to be dominant sable/sable - that has DISTINCT black toe marks/tarheels."
Here is one....His name is Galant z Pohranicni Straze....he can ONLY produce sables....


Galant has been bred too bi colors, black and tans, sables and solid blacks and has ONLY produced sables.