REAL BITE OUT? - Page 4

Jim,
You and GARD have made really good points. I train and place dogs with PD's and there is no absolutes. There are great real dogs that will out in real engagement and there are real dogs that will perform(out) depending on the intensity of the altercation and the handler's vibes. Some dogs will not out in real situation at all. This can be due to lack of training or this can be due to personality composition of dog and foundation work. Many police dogs are not well maintained trainingwise after they graduate from school and hit the streets. AND some officers like the type of dogs that they have to manually take dog off the perp and don't try to "correct" this. I have seen examples and instances of all of these type of situations. In answer tp Prager, I think the first analysis goes to the temperament of the dog in assessing why the dog won't out on real bite. From there you can ascertain if the "fix" will keep the dog a top performing dog(whether it is LE or PP), or whether the fix will create a new dog.JMO

Gustav,
You make very good points.
And as I have said, training should continue after class is over, on duty, on the job. 

Mahon also makes some good points about control, and civilians, and intelligence of the dog.

Then there is when, when is it justified to release the dog on a suspect?

No two suspects are the same, the threat is not the same.

A lot of difference between a running teenager and a violent suspect known to be dangerous.

I think control is very important.

And training should be ongoing.

Moons.

Mahon,
Thanks for bringing a key to training that I think is often missed today, at least in what I see.  Agitation starts in the head of the agitator.  It starts before the session begins when one puts themselves in the role of the bad guy.  This cannot be taught and it has driven me nuts trying to teach it to others.  Either you understand/feel it or you do not.  you must throw off all inhibitions.  Your mind set is at least as important as what you do.  It is psyching yourself up and letting the dog know it is real.  The key to good training/agitation is to make it as real as the real thing and that is in the head and heart, not in the body.  The body will follow if the mind set is correct.  I used to work myself up before I came in contact with the dog and when I got goose bumps and could feel the fight and challenge within me then I was ready to deal with the dog. 

If you watch ultimate fighting you will see that the battle begins during the refs instructions to the combatants.  It is the glare down, the fight and pumping up of each man in the others face, revealing confidence and dominance.  Shouting or anything else is only as good as the heart behind it.  Too many are taught methods when what is needed is the right attitude, the method will unfold in the process.  Dogs will know the difference in the training and the real, it is the job of the agitator to put himself in the real.

I believe good agitation is a lost art for the most part.  My blood pressure goes up thinking about it.  I used to live for bringing out the fight in the dog, and once you do this everything else falls in place.  Obviously I am not talking about a new/green dog, it has to be worked in as the dog grows/exhibits  confidence. 
Thanks for bringing this up.

At the end of the day,there is no comparison between a decoy with all the pedding screaming from a dog bite and a bad guy who is got no pedding and blood is comming out of him and the way the body reacts to real pain you are sensing.

And if there is a decoy who is that good of an actor,i say you my friend are in the wrong freaking buisness,move to hollywood.

Still whoever thinks that a real dog would not out you got more learning to do.Have a nice one.

Held,
If you were referring to me, first I would not move to Hollywood as that is acting or pretend land.  I was not talking about acting, I was talking about a mindset which is not acting.  Sorry you do not get this but I know what I know and I know the fight I have brought out of dogs.  Ultimate fighters facing off are not acting, they are pumping themselves up to a level of dominance and it is real, not acting, it is a state of mind and the dog does see this.  Because you have not experienced this, you would not know however.
You have a nice one. 

I have owned only two dogs that could bite in a real situation...When I worked in Prague as a security guard I had a dog that searched traines. If the person stood still this dog would just sit there and looked quiet pretty. If you moved all the hell broke loose. I had to teach the dog to mark with bark ( bark and  hold). The second dog bit whatever he found in the traines.. that dog was a liability. Both dogs I just chocked out. One of the dogs had his head shot off by a fugitive, leg bite (my fault, bad traning) .. never incouradged leg bites since.
This dog I have I know he is capable of biting, not using him since I am not working as a K9 handler anymore. I just do muzzle work.
I have never required outing on a person, I did not want the dog somehow out on a man just in case. Weird huh?


pack

I don't know maybe it's just my view and maybe it is wrong, but if I send my dog and he bites I don't care as much if he outs or not, what I really care about is weather I can recall him before he engages. Kind of the same when someone picks a fight with me, most of the time I stay cool, and wont fight till absolutely necessary, but once I start I don't finish till the person is unconscious or not capable of continue the fight. I would never give the aggressor chance to regain his grounds, balance I would make sure he can't continue to fight.

Not referring to anyone,just making a general statement.You can be a legend in your own head,but it does not mean that you really are one.A real fight is a real fight everything else is not.Not sure how someone can not understand that.Really iot is just common sense.Have a nice one.

olskoolgsds,
Makes a very important point about an agitator, especially in protection.
He must play a part, a role.   It must be convincing.
Its been a very long time since I trained a dog to bite and protect, but it starts with the first impression.
I used the real deal for initial agitation, sacking, and a flanking can only be done once if done correctly.
The person you pick to do this must be real in my opinion.   Someone you would not invite over for dinner.
Worked well for me, and I based much of this on some of Koehler's methods.
This person did not come from the actors guild, I believe I found him on work release...... and it was cheap for what I got out of it.
A wise choice is very important.

The out is as important in my opinion as the going in.
You must have both period.

Moons.

Any time you are trying to duplicate a real situation,and agitation is a decoy 's attempt to make the fight look real to a dog you are not really going to go in and start hitting the dog in the head as a dog might experience that in a real fight with someone,is an acting role a decoy is fulfilling.

A real fight is a real fight no matter how you look at it and a good decoy is the one who can try to immitate as close to the real thing as possible without starting a real fight with the dog while you are tying to train it. Have a nice one.