What is a King Shepherd - Page 4

Sunsilver - even though a lot of people say their dogs are smart, I am usually skeptical if unproven, I believe you because you seem to be very trustworthy and knowledgeable.  I can surely believe that if you took gsd's and stayed away from nervous dogs, and tended to go with bigger (often calmer) puppies -- who, if picked young, are often puppies who have had less stress in getting the milk they needed in vitro and then when nursing -- then it makes some sense that you'd get smart, and maybe even gentle, dogs.  I would also guess -- tell me if I am wrong -- they would tend to be a bit dominant.  Not in a drivey way, but more in a stubborn way? 

Even if willing, they are probably not able to be competitive in agility, but can they get over the meter board and over the A frame?  If so, that would be a true testament to this Tina Barber's emphasis on structure.  (It's what you do with your hips more than how they look on xrays that matters, after all.)  In AKC, the jumps are now very low, but the big breeds often get special dispensation anyway -- sad.  Can these Shilohs jump at least their wither height?

I am not saying this to be skeptical.  I actually have a friend who has the means to get himself pretty much whatever sort of dog he wants -- and has not the slightest inclination to be competitive.  But he does run and bike and hike and wants a giant shepherd.    In my personal circle, people are always asking me for dog advice -- and then they want to know where they can get a dog as big or bigger than my 100 lb gsd! 

Bucko, my friend's dogs were doing the agility A frame, but that may be different from the one used in schutzhund. I know for a fact that the foundation GSD's WERE capable of doing the 2 metre wall, but the current ones? I'll have to ask.

Hey, why jump a fence, when you know how to open the gate?   One owner recently complained they'd had to put a LOCK on the gate to the backyard, because they couldn't find a latch that the dogs weren't able to open.

I hear too many of these stories from too many different people for them to be made up.

Just like with any breed, there is a range of temperments with the Shilohs. Most tend to be on the soft, submissive side, but I know some males that can be VERY dominant, and have been real trials to their owners as a result. One in particular is aggressive with other males, and you daren't get anywhere near him with your male dog. He's fine with females, though. (I spent the night at his owner's house, so I got to know him fairly well.)

Until I was 40, I always jumped the gate.  For some years now, I open the gate.  Good point.

But can they run and jump without it being a big deal in heat or sun?

They do sound smart, and I think a 130 lb dominant male could be a problem.  But so could a shy-sharp dog, although submissive takes many forms.

 The annual Shiloh Homecoming is held in mid-August, over 3 days. I attended Homecoming last year for the first time. Fred Lanting was the judge, and with Fred being qualified to judge in SV shows, he liked the dogs to do LOTS of trottting! The weather was terribly hot, and all I wanted to do was sit in a chair in the shade. I was very glad I didn't have a Shiloh I was trying to show. No dogs collapsed that I heard about, though I think some of the owners were pretty close to it!

Shyness has a strong inheritable factor, and Tina won't use a dog like that for breeding. It still crops up now and then. With most pups it's just a fear stage, and they eventually get over it, but with some it's a real problem.

I have yet to hear of a Shiloh that was sharp-shy.

GSDs really spoil a person, I admit.  I wouldn't buy a puppy whose parents are not titled, and if the sire is not a 3, I struggle to figure out why -- or I walk.  Hips, of course, good pedigree, working ability everywhere.  I find myself amazed that people think they can sell puppies with "good bloodlines" when parents and even grandparents are unproven.  But they do!

So my problem with a dog like the Shiloh or King is that as much as I want to believe the great stories, deep down I say to myself that I will have to wait until people prove their dogs are good.  Many tervs for example have long since stopped doing bitework competitions, but so many of them are doing high level OB, TR and agility that I consider the breed for real.  Border collies are real, to me, as well.  And some lines of shelties. 

But when you can buy a working shepherd or soften it with a show shepherd or soften it with a soft puppy in a normal litter -- and know so much about what you're getting -- it is such a huge leap of faith to step outside that world. 

I guess I am personally the sort of person who knows from harsh experience that a dog who cannot or will not swim, retrieve, jump, be 100% obedient, cope with travel, noise, crowds, etc., is a great burden to me and I am not a good person for them.  I don't need any more pooping pet bags -- my wife's poodle is one who exhausts me with his dysfunctionality.  I admit that the two + hours I have to spend every day outside with my gsd can be a burden, but his zeal for work and like make it worthwhile. 

I have to personally wait for the day these dogs are proven.  Until then, I think I can recommend them with some confidence to someone who wants a big, long haired, gsd type dog with a good chance it will be a very smart, affectionate, perhaps surprisingly intelligent, pet.

There is also the question of overly narrow gene pools.  How can even an operation of a dozen breeders possibly maintain a safely broad gene pool?  The original broadening when they went outside the breed was good, but how can they keep it up?

Tina calculates COI's before doing any breedings. Hips must pass, and the dog must be temperment tested. There are other requirements as well, but I'm not sure what they are. Possibly cardiac certification? The breeding dogs must also have good structure. Tails are important, due to the malemute blood, and the dogs must meet minimum height standard. She tries to keep the COI under 20%. Her licensed breeders must do the same, or she will not register their pups.

Latest litter: www.shilohshepherds.com/newzion/ivyWarbaLitterPage.htm

All pups undergo a LER (Litter Evaluation Report) to test temperment, problem solving ability (maze) gunsureness (starter pistol) prey drive (chase after a toy) etc.

The litter evaluation for my friend's pups is in 5 days. I am going to help her transport the pups to New York (to Tina's kennel)!

Bucko,

That's my Ash :)  Yes, he's bigger than the typical GSD you see, all my dogs are.  I tend to agree with you about the narrowing of the gene pool, unfortunately that's what happens when you create your own breed, but because I'm with GSD rather than Shiloh or Kings I do not have to worry about limiting myself.  BTW nice avi!  One of my dogs has Rin Tin Tin way back in her pedigree, I was looking for some nice pics of him recently.

The Shiloh outcross, Hoofprint Orbit, also has Rin Tin Tin in the ancestry.

If you're looking for pics of Rin Tin Tin, go to his website: http://www.rintintin.com/index.htm

Thanks, I've been thinking about getting some of the old comic books on Ebay, all of that stuff way way before my time lol