Do not play ball with your dog. - Page 4

there are probably better explanations but here is a very simplistic view.

Prey drive is wanting to chase after a moving object, whether it be a ball a sleeve or an animal (as in the wild) once the movement stops then the game stops and the dog loses interest.

Ball drive is the dog wanting to possess the ball.  even after the movement stops the dog wants to possess the ball The ball doent have to be moving for the dog to want to possess it

foxtrot,
I agree with obsession, it happens.
Koehlor?   You have to use more than one method now a days thats true, and a little common sense.   But there are good and bad points to every method.
You are intimately in control of the ball and everything else, can't tell you how to train your dog here, no one can.
Suggestions maybe, but there is no one size fits all in training.
The difference between protection and Schutzhund are like night and day to my way of thinking and whats good for one is not practical for the other.

Anyone other than yourself offering the dog a ball is a distraction and should be dealt with as such.

I do not leave balls with my dogs to play with.   They are a tool.    

Moons.

Well, I would have to agree that ball drive is closely related to prey drive. 

Im not so sure that the possession of the toy isnt also related....most animals dont lose interest in the meal after they have spent time stalking, waiting, chasing and killing the prey.....they guard and protect it..

I am guessing the best answer is that they are closely related...but there is no disticnt line where you can separate them the way you can between defense and prey. 

My GSD Kaiser LOVES ball -stick -Frisbee- anything I hold in my hand that he wants me to make MOVE - he works for !

I will throw it a hundred times-he brings it back-sometimes when he doesn't "drop it" right away-I either make him do it or ignore him until he does- ( takes 3 seconds when he thinks the game is stopping) ..when he gets too intense - I mean really fixated-I have him "go hup" he then has to go across the yard and jump on a stump and platz ( all still totally focused on the ball) Kaiser is my companion he works for the ball and when I say "take a rest" he immediately goes to rest.
All because he is so driven he wants to do anything that will insure him that he gets to play the game!

But, that's my dog-and he does not work or do Schutzhund so that's what I do.
Then we go trailing and swimming and people see Kaiser out in the middle of the pond they ask me how I got my GSD to love water-I say he doesn't love water he loves his BALL lol!!

Katrina

Thanks beetree:)

 

I just realized from reading your quote: my GSD has play drive and my Border Collie has PREY drive!!
 
Although , I kind of  supspected that when I rescued her at 2 years old-she is now 8.

She does NOT play at all she fixates ( Collie eye-but mind you she is a very different BC) I do believe the killing instinct she has would NOT have worked on a flock of sheep:( 

I tired her on a sheep farm with a BC breeder for some FUN when I rescued her -and they said she did not want to herd at all and that they have one male like that - very large as well-and he would just as soon do what she did- GRAB onto the back end of the sheep as if to pull it down. I have some fun dogs here lol!!

I love this board - I find so much good info on here-I am very busy but in between ( day and night) I pop on to see what's new!!!

 

Do you think my pink cloud will dissipate for this NEWBIE lol:)

katrina

Ball drive Vs Prey Drive----this drive or that drive----what is a drive----Why don't the european's use the terms drive?-----

I have discussed this stuff on boards (esp this one) many, many times. I just don't have it in me to go over and over it again and again just have people argue with me (and it is usually people who have no idea what they are talking about)

Sorry to any newbies but this is why you don't see many actual trainers on these boards. I used to give my opinions all the time, but just don't have it in me anymore.

What I can tell you is anyone who has any real experience doing decoy work have seen dogs that will chase a ball all day long, but have no interest in chasing a rag or any form of bitework. So that is why, in simple terms, I say they are two seperate things.

to touch on the original topic, all my dogs look to me for a ball the second i walk out the back door, let them out of their kennel, or unload them from the truck. I do this for several reasons.....

1) My main focus is bitework and competition. I want my dogs to be completely focused on me and wanting to work with me. that is what my dogs live for-to interact with me. The ball, toy, etc is the avenue in which they interact with me. I don't own "love bug pet dogs" I own working dogs.

2) The type of dogs i like do not have an "off switch" so there is no "hanging out in the yard or in the house" with my dogs. If you are not interacting with them, they will force you to interact with them. When my dogs get old, then they come in the house and sleep next to the bed, or lay on the lawn while I am enjoying a cold beer, or lay in the garage when i am working on my car. when they are young we work and play hard.

3) this is how I like to interact with my dogs. I like to have fun with my dogs. If i am not playing ball, tug, or working my dogs, we go to the river or on a hike, or some other form physical activity. I don't need to snuggle with my dogs to fill some sort of emotional void. If I want to cuddle with my dog, I play ball with them until they are tired enough they want to just lay down, then we can spend what many non-sport dog people call "quality time".

Just how I do things.

I trained a Doberman to a CD, back in the 70's using only Koehler's book. No club, no friends who trained, just me, the dog and Bill. I didn't know any other way or where to learn any other way.

The dog did what was required of her, but with absolutely no joy or happiness to be doing something. She did it from fear of what would happen if she didn't do it. And I went step by step with Koehler. His method was all correction if you did not get the correct response from the dog. 

I would still use his method of "poison proofing" the dog using a fence charger, but that is to save a dogs life. His very harsh obedience methods like  "yank" the dog in a 360 flip is totally unnecessary to get the results.

Rik

Thanks for the explanation of difference between "prey" drive and "ball" drive. I sit in the floor every night and toss a ball for my pup. He always comes straight back to me. If I try to take the ball, he resist strongly. If I ignore the ball, he drops it in my lap every time so I will throw it again. This can go on for an hour. He has never given up before I do. When we finish, I put the ball up.

Just because a dog chases a ball at home for mommy or daddy but wont chase a rag at the club does not prove the fact that the two are not related.  It only proves the lack of drive.  What about the dog that will chase a rag....and even chase the helper..but is a pitiful in bite work?   

Mommy throwing a ball at home vs a strange helper on the field.....completely different picture on the field for the dog.  The pressure on the dog is different......but I would think the drives are still "related"

Most experienced helpers understand this. 

The type of dogs i like do not have an "off switch" so there is no "hanging out in the yard or in the house" with my dogs. If you are not interacting with them, they will force you to interact with them



ok first i like to say that statement like this goes to show how much people do not know about dogs any dog working niot working high drive low drive medium drive,does not matter.every dog can have a switch you have to teach a dog when it is time for what.this is a stupid way of thinking that i have a high drive dog and he does not know when to stop.it is your job to teach the dog.i have been around all kinds of working dogs,i have a malinois who is 12 years old i can assure you he has highr drive than most of your high drive shepherds and still does at 12 and he lived all his life in the house since he was 8 weeks old,i have a Vito Waldwinkle son who is shepherd in a true malinois skin extreme high drives would kill you for any toy but he knows also when to let it go and this all because i teach my dogs.it is amazing to me how so many people are clueless on this board and i am not talking about newbies.the only problems with dogs any dog is its owner,not the drive of the dog or energy or agression it is handler always.have a nice one.