Showlines, Working Lines - The ability to work - Page 4

 OK..here's my input..

Breeding to the standard?? What does that mean? 
Lots of folks on this database say they breed to the standard but if we look at their dogs, they look different.  Why is that?
How come there is some dogs with apparent fault like roach and straight front that are V rated?
If I tell you to put a picture of the perfect GSD(in your mind) you will see a LOT of dogs that are pretty different..

I think the problem is we all have our ideas of the perfect GSD..but we also have all our personal taste and the judges too so over the years we have come to this huge difference between W and S (only talking structure here).  People breed to what's winning and who point the ones who wins....the judge!  Someone pointed out that conformation dogs couln't run  as fast as working dogs..I would have to say that I agree for some of them..they are built to trot or for herding.  Altought if a dog is well built..it should do both with no problem..I have dogs here that are very angulated but are clean and can outrun any dogs..

If we bring back the debate on working..Why do they call them working line..I think they should call it Schutzhund lines cause for me it is a SPORT..not WORK.  Working dogs don't face the same routine every day.  I have seen shh 3 dogs that we're very good on the field but didn't pass the night test or a civil test .  I think we should make the difference between the two. (now i'm going to have my butt kicked LOL).

If ever a club that make sense was near my place and I wanted to train a dog..I would buy a working dog in a minute.  I like their drive and they have been bred for schutzhund..If I want to do herding..I would buy a show dog..WHY?  because I think they are more built for doing that job.  They float easily around flocks and are less agressive with the sheeps..

IMO I think we need both..strong working dog with a better structure (not overdone but  better) and Showline dogs that proves they can do something with theit lives!!

If we all think we breed to the standard..now who is right and who is wrong!! (structurally speaking)

When Hermann Martin was President of the SV it was said in Germany "that there were no grey dogs in Germany".   I can only remember two males that were highly placed by him.  The VA Orno  v Murrtal (although I think he lost his VA status later but not for colour) and  V17 Joker v Arlett.   Alfred Hahn (zwinger v Busecker Schloss), a well respected judge and voice in the SV, pressed the case for the grey dogs but, basically, he was shut up by Hermann Martin.  Herr Hahn bred many grey dogs and he insisted, quite correctly, that thy were good for colour and character.   The only well placed grey dog since then was Timo v Berrekasten.

The "V" rating in Germany means "excellent", however, for me, this represents a false image.  At the Sieger Show we have the VA group (Excellent Select) comprising a few dogs (2008 11 VA males), the V rated males were 133 and then there were only 3 SG males.  How can there be so many V dogs in a group of 221 animals.  Of the total group there were 74 dogs marked EZ which means they were presented but did not come back.  Presumably they all had a Veterinary certificate as required by the rules for withdrawal - some hope!!!!!  It is not possible that in a class of 211 a total of 133 males were excellent.  In the top female class there were 12 VA females,and then 130 V rated dogs and NO SG females.  The same comments apply.   Who is kidding who?

Mackenzie

I agree with the hot statement.
I think that is good ideal.
And I have a dog in that category. She is doing great and it is alot of work and I think alot of times they are being titled quickly to be bred and to make money. My dog is not titled yet, but I am having alot of fun learning.
she has her BH and I know she will do fine with her sch1, it has been a great learning experience. I have had moments of
frustration, but that is because I am still learning. My dog has great potential. And I think the more you put time into your dog the more rewarding it is.   I do understand and agree with alot of the other posters. I see a decline in working for the sl. But, I don't know if that is just not training or learning to train.
but, either way I am going to keep going forward with her.

 Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't there a LOT of emphasis on color in german showline??  I always hear from SL people about colors, colors and colors...Who gives a f... about colors!! (except disqualifying colors of course).  It seem like a big issue but if something is easy to get in a breeding is COLORS!  You can have back great pigment in one generation..

I understand your point Mckenzie..on a different note in our National (GSDCC) one time we had about 20 select (males and females) for about 60 dogs shown (frome each sex)!!  How can they be 40 dogs excellent in about 120 dogs shown (specials only)?? I think they should give only about 6 or 7 select a year regardless of the numbers of dogs shown.

Only the truly remarquable animals should have a select rating or V.  IMO

When Hermann martin became President he wanted a more uniform colour throughout the breed and the colours that we have now took many generations of close inbreeding to achieve consistently.   With this in mind good colour will appear most of the time.  Unfortunately, the close inbreeding programme stamped in many problems that breeders today are trying to deal with.  In the past colour paling was a problem and it can return.  Nothing is for ever.

I have no problem with the VA numbers but I think the number of V ratings needs a serious adjustment.

Mackenzie

No problem with the VA numbers? I have problems with the VA dogs, not being worthy the title lol.

I loved this topic. 

I think some show lines cannot work due to poor breeding choices some breeders have made.  They just wanted looks.  But I do think some show lines can keep up with work lines.  I was out training my female last night and helper told me she has more drive and heart than some of the worklines he has worked.  He also stated she hits the sleeve hard and with everything she has everytime she goes in for a bite.  Wether it is a courage test or in the blind my girl gives it her all.

Oh, did I mention she is a showline.  She is the one pictured in my Avatar.

I have a male (now nearly five) who bites very hard and once or twice he has had the helper off of his feet.  He is by the Sieger Bax v Luisenstrasse.  Super character and a good worker.  Nothing exagerated. Only problem that he has is a missing 1st molar.

There are, on both sides, some narrow minded people who need to open their eyes.  It is an unfortunate fact of life.

Mackenzie

The more I am around the malinois breed, the more I am convinced that the "standard" of the GSD is not a superior structure when you are talking working ability. I've always been a breed purist and tried to support WL breeders who bred with an eye to the standard. Now, I am not so sure I care. I have a very nicely built WL male who can definitely V in the work and probably in structure as well but my friend's malis have more endurance and can keep going longer. And what about those watered down jumps in the obedience phase so we don't hurt our dog's shoulders? Are we making the sport easier and than breeding dogs that can barely get over the A-frame? And that is good enough?????
The GSD of today looks nothing like it used to look. Has the wording of the standard changed? Or have our opinions of the standard changed?